Add the BMP to Bacon Bits

[dexxyy]

No that is not the way I saw your original request, but it is the way it developed. While there is no doubt that you understand a lot of points that were made, it seems that there are some that you either don`t understand or you don`t acknowledge that you do.
Ok, forgive me if I`m stating the obvious here but I have to be clear on where the confusion is arising. Say you have a circuit that has no tone control, eg a silicon fuzz face, and you want to add one, this is where the bmp/lpb comes in. you pin it on to the output of the fuzz face and you have a tonestack, however the tonestack is sucking volume from your effect so you adjust the trimmer till the effect reaches its previous level. The objective here is to claw back the lost signal, not to boost it. That is the purpose of the bmp/lpb circuit, yes you can use another booster, but why? To see how it sounds? Ok, but really you don't want to hear a booster, you just want a fuzz face with a tone control. Done this way your fuzz face will interact with other pedals as it did before, turn the lpb trimmer up and you change the dynamics of the interaction, the lpb is boosting the whole effect, not just the tone.
From what I`m reading you didn't use it that way, you used it as a booster into the Katana boost, now if it causes the Katana to clip then it is set at too high a volume, when you drop the volume to a level where it doesn`t then, to you, the Katana seems to lose its mojo, why is this necessarily  a problem with the lpb, could it not be the tonestack is colouring the mojo out of the Katana.
Personally I think that a lot of confusion has occurred because it was difficult to see what you hoped to achieve using a different booster (a very large circuit) given the boosters role in the circuit when used as it was intended, ie a slight volume recovery, and also that you were not using it the way it was intended to be used.

[motterpaul]

Okay -

I will say I appreciate the fact that we are no longer talking to each other like - whatever.

In my mind the confusion arose from people asking me to "justify" what I wanted when it was a simple request - to hear a different booster with the BMP.  When I know how to do it, I will trying adding BMP to all boosters just to see how each one sounds.

Here is what you guys didn't seem to "get." The LPB didn't work. When it was on full it distorted the following circuit. When I turned it down the sound was not the same - it failed the test.

You say "but what you want is a boost that restores the lost signal - not that boosts it" How do you guys know what I want? You were trying to sell me something I didn't want - because turning down the trimmer didn't sound good - and neither did having it on full. In that case, why NOT try a different boost - you made it sound like I was crazy for suggesting it.

I am not a pedal design expert, yet. But assuming I could do it by theory alone - how about if I find a boost that DOES make the Katana into a unique and fantastic new overdrive that I like and I keep that sound. Then theoretically I wouldn't have to claw anything back. In fact I would have the opposite challenge, of having to tone it down at the end with a volume pot at the end of circuit #2. Not in the middle.

But the harping about "you don't know what a trimmer is for" and "it's too big" - wrong and wrong. I do know what a trimmer is for, and size doesn't matter, being smaller doesn't make it sound better. It was just making a mountain out of a molehill.

One thing I am starting to understand about this business is that it is like recording engineering which I also did for years. Try telling Skunk Baxter he can't plug his guitar directly into the API console and max out the pre-amp because "it just isn't done that way." He is a VERY smart dude, and he would tell you "It's done by doing whatever works, and either it works or it doesn't." AS long as the tape was not distorted, he didn't care what happened with the electronics. And I don't mean that to sound like what he did would hurt the electronics - they were just fine.

This insistence that "you have to turn it down with the trim pot" - It's like the old Fender tags that used to say "Be very careful not to raise your guitar volume to the point where you hear distortion."

So - I hope that is clear enough. I get that there are "design principles" but this is a guitar pedal with many stages, you know as well as I there are many ways  to skin a cat. if I want to boost the gain into the katana and manage the overall volume later, who says I can't do that?

The LPB was very close. I think a lot of people might have not even noticed the distortion at full gain, but I did. By the same token a LOT of designs I build here really just don't have the same mojo unless the drive (gain, whatever) is cranked. So, maybe my endgame is finding a way to crank the pedal into tonal nirvana, and then "control" it at a later stage.

Maybe I could do that with a "clean" boost at the end (I do know at the end is more common than at the beginning) - but changing things around is what makes for innovation in this game. Why not have one at both ends?

Now you just forced me into revealing my secret fairy dust for the best new gain pedal on the market (that's a joke). But I hope you see my point. Plus this idea that there is only one way to do things, and this is what a boost is for...

We both know parts is parts. Basically you add gain to a circuit, manipulate it, and then control its tone & output and that is it. Do it at unity and it's a 'clean boost" leave more gain and its an "overdrive," use a different transistor and its a "fuzz". Just because its called a "clean boost" doesn't you have to use the trim for unity gain.

[rocket88]

Here's your issue. No one is saying you can't do what you're saying, what we are telling you is you don't understand the principles. If you add a boost I front of an effect you're going to push it into clipping/overdrive/distortion, while of you put it after the effect you're going to boost the signal into the next effect in the chain. Clean boost, dirty boost, it's all in how you use it.

What you keep going on about is that you need the boost at max output to get the right sound out of it, while the point LBP in the BMP tonestack/LBP is not to boost the signal of the original effect, but to regain the volume lost due to the tonestack itself. You do NOT want to max it out as that is not the intended use to get the desired effect. It's not that you can't do it, but that you not supposed to use it as a boost, but as if it's another stage of the original circuit.

If you are maxing it out and using it to boost you are doing it wrong. You might as well drive you car into a lake and use it as a boat. I mean they're both vehicles and provide transport. There are reasons why you do something and reasons why not to do something. Just cause something works, doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. I known someone who drag races cars, and he has a car that races with a tampon as a fuel filter. Hey it works for him to get down the track, and does he win constantly? Hell yes. But is it right? Hell no. Btw, it's funny to tell the people he beats that they lost to a car on her period and has a tampon is hysterical.

You ask for help and for people to do something for you, then you don't want to here what people have to say about it. If people are going to do a request there has to be a reason and a use besides just for you, so we, by we I mean those that can and make layouts, have all the right to ask why and how it can be used. There is more then you we need to concern with and want to help as many people as possible, not just one. This is a community mind you.  

[dexxyy]

motterpaul wrote

Okay -

I will say I appreciate the fact that we are no longer talking to each other like - whatever.

In my mind the confusion arose from people asking me to "justify" what I wanted when it was a simple request - to hear a different booster with the BMP.  When I know how to do it, I will trying adding BMP to all boosters just to see how each one sounds.

Confusion again, nobody asked you to "justify" what you wanted, you were asked HOW you wanted to use it.

Here is what you guys didn't seem to "get." The LPB didn't work. When it was on full it distorted the following circuit. When I turned it down the sound was not the same - it failed the test.

that is it working, that`s what a booster does. If your turning it down and the sound is not the same how do you KNOW it`s not the tone section affecting it 

You say "but what you want is a boost that restores the lost signal - not that boosts it" How do you guys know what I want? You were trying to sell me something I didn't want - because turning down the trimmer didn't sound good - and neither did having it on full. In that case, why NOT try a different boost - you made it sound like I was crazy for suggesting it.

Off course we didn`t know what you wanted, you didn`t know what you wanted. No end game, remember.

I am not a pedal design expert, yet. But assuming I could do it by theory alone - how about if I find a boost that DOES make the Katana into a unique and fantastic new overdrive that I like and I keep that sound. Then theoretically I wouldn't have to claw anything back. In fact I would have the opposite challenge, of having to tone it down at the end with a volume pot at the end of circuit #2. Not in the middle.

No because a volume pot on the end of circuit 2 will only adjust the volume of that effect, it wont have any effect on the previous pedal driving it


But the harping about "you don't know what a trimmer is for" and "it's too big" - wrong and wrong. I do know what a trimmer is for, and size doesn't matter, being smaller doesn't make it sound better. It was just making a mountain out of a molehill.

No it wasn`t, and being bigger doesn't make it sound better either, and size does matter to other people, people who are using this circuit as it was intended to be used



One thing I am starting to understand about this business is that it is like recording engineering which I also did for years. Try telling Skunk Baxter he can't plug his guitar directly into the API console and max out the pre-amp because "it just isn't done that way." He is a VERY smart dude, and he would tell you "It's done by doing whatever works, and either it works or it doesn't." AS long as the tape was not distorted, he didn't care what happened with the electronics. And I don't mean that to sound like what he did would hurt the electronics - they were just fine.

This insistence that "you have to turn it down with the trim pot" - It's like the old Fender tags that used to say "Be very careful not to raise your guitar volume to the point where you hear distortion."

So - I hope that is clear enough. I get that there are "design principles" but this is a guitar pedal with many stages, you know as well as I there are many ways  to skin a cat. if I want to boost the gain into the katana and manage the overall volume later, who says I can't do that?

The LPB was very close. I think a lot of people might have not even noticed the distortion at full gain, but I did. By the same token a LOT of designs I build here really just don't have the same mojo unless the drive (gain, whatever) is cranked. So, maybe my endgame is finding a way to crank the pedal into tonal nirvana, and then "control" it at a later stage.

Maybe I could do that with a "clean" boost at the end (I do know at the end is more common than at the beginning) - but changing things around is what makes for innovation in this game. Why not have one at both ends?

Now you just forced me into revealing my secret fairy dust for the best new gain pedal on the market (that's a joke). But I hope you see my point. Plus this idea that there is only one way to do things, and this is what a boost is for...

We both know parts is parts. Basically you add gain to a circuit, manipulate it, and then control its tone & output and that is it. Do it at unity and it's a 'clean boost" leave more gain and its an "overdrive," use a different transistor and its a "fuzz". Just because its called a "clean boost" doesn't you have to use the trim for unity gain.

No, No, and No. Any boost at unity is not providing a boost.

You say you want to try another boost, fine. Tell me have you built the bacon bits yet, if so have you tried it into your Katana boost? If the lpb is causing all the problems why is the tone section so critical to this experiment.

[induction]

Hi, Paul. The way I see it your request was granted when dexxyy said, "You have the tonestack layout, you have the bacon bits layout, knock yourself out." If you want to know how to put a bacon bits after a BMP tone stack, you just plug the output of the tone stack into the input of the bacon bits. If you want it all on one vero, then either ask for that (and rely on the willingness of others) or figure out how to do it yourself.

So the reason for my post is not to help with your circuit idea. Rather, I want to give you a little advice/tips. You sound like you are reaching the bridge between painting by numbers and circuit designing/modding. There is a significant shift in mindset between the two worlds, and I think this is why you are having trouble in this thread.

When it comes to vero requests, you just ask for what you want (being very specific) and people will either help or not. When it comes to designing, you are right, no one can stop you from doing/trying what you want, but if you ask for help, you are going to get design help, which means people are going to offer design suggestions. If it becomes clear that you don't know what certain phrases mean, or how design principles apply to your circuit, people will point it out and try to correct you. If you don't want design help, but you don't know how to make the circuit you want, there's not much anyone can offer you.

For example a recovery stage and a booster are electronically the same thing. The only difference is in how they are used. When you say that you want to replace the recovery stage with a booster, or that this circuit is more of a drive, and that one is more of a booster, you are indicating confusion over interchangeable terms, which people will try to help you correct. Otherwise it becomes quite difficult to communicate.

Here's a few more:
- LPB stands for 'linear power booster'. LPT doesn't mean anything that I'm aware of.

- BMP stands for 'Big Muff Pi' - the whole circuit, not just the tonestack. If you want to isolate the tonestack, say that every time ('BMP tonestack') or make up a new term and tell us what it means (eg. BMPTS, or something). Using known acronyms to refer to something else is a recipe for heartache.

(Edit to add:
- A 'clean booster' does not have unity gain by definition. A clean booster makes the signal louder without adding distortion. Or at least that's what they claim to do. Many products marketed as clean boosters actually add some distortion, but not enough to call them distortion pedals. A 'unity gain clean booster' is a paradox, but it is also the easiest effect to make: two jumper wires - one for signal, one for ground. Done.

Many terms that we use do have multiple or vague meanings: overdrive, distortion, fuzz, 'clean', gain, drive. This makes it very important that we communicate as clearly and accurately as possible. I try to avoid those words and find ones that are much harder to misconstrue, or at least use them in ways that are very clear, but I often fail at this.)

- When you say that the LPB clips the Katana, this is happening because the Katana is getting too much signal voltage at its input. Any booster with equal gain will cause clipping here. So 'You say "but what you want is a boost that restores the lost signal - not that boosts it" How do you guys know what I want?' You told us you don't want it to clip, that's how we know. But you also said that turning down the LPB made it less ballsy. That ballsiness is probably also a bit of clipping, or else a difference in the frequency response. Again, you will frustrate people who try to help you get what you want, when what you ask for is self-contradictory, or if you use terms incorrectly. Knowing that you are doing this and how to correct for it is an experience thing, so you just have to accept some grouching if you want the help. No biggie.

- Really. Get yourself a breadboard. When you start down the circuit design road, you can't do without one. If you want to hear what something sounds like, why waste time and components on a vero for something you might not like. A breadboarded circuit can be modified at will. Modding a built vero is a PITA, especially if you want to change the circuit topology instead of just swapping component values.

 I hope this doesn't come across as scolding. I'm really just offering advice that I think will improve your experience in this hobby.

[rocket88]

Not going at add anything, but to second what induction said. Listen to the man. He's the one that taught me the way of the breadboard and it's the most important tool I have.

[Silver Blues]

Thirded. I looked at this thread and wasn't going to say anything about it but I guess I am now. I crossed the same bridge Induction speaks of myself some time ago. And there's no need to do something as drastically impulsive as ceasing to post, we're all just trying to help man. No one here ever ever has the intention of driving members of the community away.