Okay, stupid question Re: Cab Sims and DI Boxes

[Heath]

I've finally gotten around to messing with this stuff.  

Shamefully, I'm a bit of a caveman when I comes to this stuff.  I've always amp-miced, usually badly, which usually leads to "Hey I have an idea.. need to mic the amp.. nah, too much trouble, I'll do it later..."

So I want to try this Cab Sim and DI box crap and see whats up.  Unfortunately most of the info out there devolves very quickly into which dick-contest-competitor has which thousand-dollar piece of hardware, etc.

So.. if I have it right:
Guitar -> Effects -> CabSim -> DI Box -> Recording Interface.

Do I have that right?


Thanks!!

[Frank_NH]

You have it right.  That's how Runoffgroove recorded many of their samples (below).  You may not need a DI box, but if you're running long cables to your recording interface, a balanced line can prevent noise from entering the signal.

Runoffgroove Sound Samples

[benjammin]

honest question, and not trying to discourage any DIY projects :) but why not see how good some software cab sim and reverb sound before going too nuts over it? there's some really nice VST stuff out there these days, might be worth giving a shot before anything else

[Beaker]

Yes Heath you have the order right. Absolutely not a stupid question.

Don't you just hate it when a simple quest for information leads you to that dark, dark corner of the internet called The Gear Page. Ploughing through page after page after page of grown men trying to intimidate each other by showing off their (supposedly) mahoosive johnsons behind the metaphorical bike shed. And all the while what really matters is the size of their bank balance.

My son is a bit of an expert at this lark, due to a combination of extreme curiosity, coupled with no money and a desire to get the best results possible.

Make yourself something like a H&K Red Box.

A cab sim box like the Hughes and Kettner Red Box is a cheap way of doing it - combines the cab sim with the DI, and can give great results. The best thing is that you can carry on recording while the rest of the house is asleep, and tweak it all latter. My son usually sends the recorded guitar back out through a TL Audio valve preamp, and back into the recording desk (laptop). Throw in reamping and other tricks and you can get awesome results,

VSTs are good, but (and I hate to say it) sound like VSTs. you can get much better results IMHO using a mic and/or a DI.

Don't forget that probably the greatest guitar sound af all time was DI. - Roger McGuinn's Rickenbacker straight into a Urei desk  with maximum compression on Mr. Tambourine Man.

[Heath]

Like I said, I'm a bit of a caveman.  I like something I can lay my hands on without trying to turn a knob with a mouse pointer.  I don't want to guess at whether someone programmed this or that to properly do what a box I just built does naturally.  I work on computers (specifically Redhat Linux servers) all day when I get home, I just don't want to deal with some over-though and under documented software relying on some half-assed operating system if I don't have to.

Plus, as Beaker mentioned, it's hard to find software based effects that sound as good as hand built analog stuff.

That said, I have a long history with Cakewalk and Reason products, but even then I tend to use Cakewalk as a pretty straight-forward multi-track recorder and Reason as a fantastic sounding drum machine.  I've occasionally used Reverb in Cakewalk to decent effect, but it can't touch the EQD Ghost Echo reverb pedal I built.  Even so, I often have to spend hours shifting around laggy recording and other results of computer recording.  The automation, however, is amazing.

Anyway, back to recording hardware...  I bought a M-Audio USB interface a while back with a 1/4" in jack for guitar and am XLR in for a mic (and a bunch of other features).  I have yet to be able to record a decent sounding guitar track on it.  I have no doubt whatsoever that it's my fault in that I haven't fully read the 300 page technical document, blah bah blah, but it fucking pisses me off that after spending $200 on the thing I can't plug into it and play and hear a recording of what I hear when I'm playing.

So now I'm building a Red Box and I'm building JohnK's Active DI layout plus a few different Cab Sims to see if I can get that M-Audio box to work with them, or just skip it and go without it.  My only reservation about the Redbox is the potential for amp damage, especially sinc eit wil be a home-built Red Box.

BTW, Beaker, I think it's awesomely hilarious that you mentioned The Gear Page... while it was not the only site that caused me to write the dick-contest blurb above, it was the last site I hit before coming here and writing that (and is responsible for about 75% of that annoyance.)  

[dbat69]

It is strange how you two guys said exactly what I thought about The Gear Page   Part of the reason I stopped looking on there.  I just got so hacked off with the dicks trying to out pleasure each other.  At least here people genuiely try to help each other and pass on their experience - good or bad  (usually the latter in my case )

[Heath]

I will say that the Gear Page torch mobs (somewhat righteous, if self-induced) make for highly entertaining reading.  The TMG and Xvex threads were real nail biters!

But yeah, this place, with it's primary focus on DYI, usually takes a different road since most of our bragging rights come from NOT paying stupid prices for over-hyped Tube Screamer rip-offs. :D

I love it.

[Beaker]

TGP - your guitar is crap, your amp is crap and your tubescreamer clone only cost $500?  It must be crap. I am better than you.

Tagboard Effects - You paid $25 to build a tubescreamer clone? Nice job! Now if you want, we will help you build one for $20.

To be fair it's not just TGP - most other gear forums seem to be mainly populated by cork sniffers and naturally superior beings.

[Frank_NH]

"Tagboard Effects - You paid $25 to build a tubescreamer clone? Nice job! Now if you want, we will help you build one for $20."  

Shhhhhhhhhhhh.  Don't let them know that their tone is only worth $20 in Asian-made electronics components!

In many cases, the effects in $80 - $200 range are worth it if they have a well made PCB, robust design, and top grade wiring and parts.  All too often, though, you see these "boutique" $200+ effects with crappy parts, circuit boards dipped in epoxy then wrapped in electrical tape, amateur wiring jobs and worse.  It's amazing what people will spend their hard-earned money on in the search for "toan".  

[Beaker]

Yes Frank you right, but you do realise that to those who are really serious about, you can't put a price on tone...

Seriously though I don't begrudge Boss, EHX or any of the big boys charging what they do for pedals. They have huge costs to recoup.

[Frank_NH]

Remember 90% of the "toan" is in your fingers.  The other 10% is in that $5000 boutique guitar, $2000 boutique amp, and the $500 boutique overdrive...it REALLY is!  

Of course, you would think that once the TGP folk had found the "toan"  they would stay with the gear that gave them the "toan".  But no!  They have to buy even newer gear so that they now have the newest and best "toan" which is much better than last week's "toan" because...well, just because.  And because Slash is using the newest gear which gives him the "toan", if I buy his gear I'll get the "toan" too!

[dbat69]

Yeah, but Slash probably plays some crappy old copy through a crappy old amp when he records, but keeps it quiet  The engineer then sprinkles some fairy dust over it all and hey presto, awsome sounds.

[rocket88]

Well, by new you me old, right? Cause isn't the best "toan" from NOS parts? I mean you can't possibly get good "toan" from anything that's new. So I guess us building stuff is useless cause we can't get good "toan".

[Frank_NH]

I know this thread is off-topic now, but...

One of the reasons I really like the effects pedal hobby is that I know enough now that I can mod a circuit to give me an improved (for me) and unique "toan" that works well with my guitars and amp.  Add a tone control to increase treble?  No problem!  More gain?  Increase the gain pot in the op amp feedback loop.  And so on.  Now the "toan" is my own...

(OK, I'll get off the "toan" kick now...)  

[motterpaul]

I realize I lot of people here see me as one of those TGP guys - and it's Okay. I cannot control how people see me, and I have to admit I learned a lot at TGP.  I got out of music in the late 80s, just as analog was ebbing, and I got back into it in the early 2000s. I had a lot of stuff to catch up on - especially since the Internet had been "invented" in the interim.

When I got back into music, the first place I found was the Protools DUC (Digidesign User's Group). Now there is a community that truly does more than the company itself. Some of the computer builders there will help people pick out every single component you need to run PT on windows. Today that is a lot easier than it was 10 years ago.

I found TGP about three years ago, and I did learn a lot there too. I knew recording science and DAWS, but I did not know much history of guitars & amps. I had never played in a live band before 2008 (just did recording). A lot of the guys there are collectors, so it is only natural that their focus is on value (cost) and small comparisons. But that knowledge comes in handy at times.

There are guys on there who own 25 commercial overdrives, just because they want to. Of course they don't use them all, who could? Yes, I do think that is ridiculous. But there are also a lot of guys like me - who used TGP to find their "toan" and have settled in. I personally use what I own and that is it.

I honestly am not looking for a new anything right now except maybe some better pedals. I have the amps and guitars I love, and they are not collectable, vintage or boutique. But here is the deal - and I feel many people at TGP may be unduly criticized in this regard. Everything I acquire is at its street value, so if I need to liquidate I will essentially lose almost nothing. A lot of TGP people are like me. The used market is the biggest competition Guitar Center has. Out of everything I own, I can only think of one amp I bought new - my last Marshall DSL 40C - solely because its a new model and used prices were not much better than new.

I learned my lesson about value when I bought a Nuemann U-67 back in 1981 for $1450. I just sold it last year for $7k. This is not bragging, it is making a point that good quality musical gear has intrinsic value that does not go away, and in some cases actually goes up. And yes, I also had the pleasure of using it on maybe 1000 recordings over the years as I worked in studios. You can't beat that - using a piece of top quality gear and making money by owning it at the same time. If that's what the "stupid" people at TGP are doing, then count me in.

With the proceeds I bought a Pearlman hand-built LDC which retails for $2300. I paid $1150. This is an investment, not a luxury purchase. That mic should retain its value forever.

My point is just that you shouldn't lump everybody into one barrel; whether its TGP, TAG or wherever. There are good people and not so good people everywhere. Knowledge is important. For every goofball at TGP there is someone who is an expert who is willing to take the time to help out somebody new.

And for recording advice, I highly recommend Gearslutz. More recording pros hangout there than anywhere I know of.

As far as recording guitar direct and amp emulators. Personally, the only decent modern era sounds I have ever gotten are from the Eleven-Rack (Avid). Buy one use used for about $400 and it comes with Protools 10 (with the iLok dongle) - which alone is a $300 value. That's what I did.

Line 6, Digitech, etc are crap in my experience.

For pure speaker emulation, this is one of the top picks: http://www.palmergear.com/pdi03.shtml. Yes, it is pricy but if you buy it used it will hold it value because these devices have the right reputation. How do I know? because you can't even find them used on Ebay. If you buy one and ever need to sell it, you should be able to get close to what you paid. Even better - hold out for a used one and you will get exactly what you paid if you ever need to sell it.

Personally, I prefer the sound of a real amp. You can use an iso-box. I have a Rivera which works well. It has two mic inputs and a bass-relief design so you do not get artificial build-up of low end as is common in iso-boxes. But these days I usually use my Avid.

In the old days - the Tom Scholz Rockman was MADE for direct recording, and it works. I had one I used for years. There is something called the "Mockman" out there - the first pedal I built, and it comes close, but not as good as the originals. Personally, I really like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-TOM-SCHOLZ-ROCKMAN-SUSTAINOR-AND-CHORUS-DELAY-MODULES-/201194242205?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item2ed81c809d - excepy I had a smaller version, same size as the original Rockman.

[Heath]

I don't really like hanging out in places where you get mocked for using a BOSS pedal.

[Frank_NH]

Thanks for your comments Paul.  I agree there are good folk on TGP and elsewhere.  I like reading people's reviews, knowing of course that it's just one opinion and colored by many other factors (guitar used, amp used, etc.).  Same with YouTube videos. At least with someone like gearmandude (who I enjoy) I can get an idea how a pedal will sound in one context and can decide if it's worth building DIY.  Two pedals I want to build simply from watching online demos are the Cornish SS-2 and G2D the Cream Tone.  Will they live up to the hype?  Who knows - but it's fun pursuing different sounds by building effects from scratch.

This thread reminds me that I need to set up my recording space again.  My computer workstation / recording DAW was moved from my music room and I haven't recorded in a while.  I have some ideas on how to reduce noise with my acoustic amp, mics, and floor pedalboard (a digitech RP1000, which I like a lot).  I run everything through a mixer and then into my computer.  Overdubs are easy with near zero latency.  Of course, I'm not too concerned about perfection as I'm not a pro and I don't need to sound like Abbey Road to be happy...

[Heath]

Fuck that.  Abbey Road or go home.














...just kidding.

[motterpaul]

Heath wrote

Fuck that.  Abbey Road or go home.

...just kidding.

My home recordings have never sounded anything like Abbey Road - come to think of it, neither have my studio recordings. I wonder if talent has anything to do with it?

[Frank_NH]

"Fuck that.  Abbey Road or go home. "

Well, The Beatles recorded "Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" on a four track.  I have many more than four tracks, so...ha ha!!

It's actually pretty amazing what George Martin did with four tracks back in those days.

"In 1967, during the age of tape and the tracking of Sgt. Pepper’s, engineers were limited to four tracks at a time, which they could then “bounce,” or merge together, to free up room for additional recording."

 Deconstructing The Master Track of The Beatles’ “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band”