Older components? Necessary or swappable

[Silver Blues]

NTE has made a business of producing replacements for out-of-stock or out-of-production parts, and most electronics retailers carry them (sometimes exclusively these days). Their database is a quick way to find equivalent parts. You'll end up paying full retail but if you need a specific replacement part they're a good bet. They even share exact part numbers with the old ECG.

[motterpaul]

Thank You Silver Blues - I looked at it & will keep it bookmarked. Another one is GalCo

Just for clarification - and to keep this thread on track, my idea was not to start a bible on theory or parts substitutions, I know you can find those online. BUT....

This forum is the best place for substitution questions about the projects IN THIS SITE, because this is where the Tagboardeffects people who have already successfully done these specific circuits hang out. We already know you can look up substitutions in Google, but Google didn't look at the circuit you are working on first - so it doesn't know the specific application for the piece you are researching. The people here do know.

Below is an example of how I would do this.  I made it a separate post because it will then come up high in search rankings for seekers, and will also be easy to find by all who have made these circuits; since new posts should get listed on the right. I know I would find this helpful, since I often see substitution questions go unanswered in the comments sections of many circuits.

If you like this idea but want to start over with a new thread (since this one got off topic from the get-go) then that is easy to do...

[motterpaul]

SUBS?  MPSA18 - (HBE Power Screamer)
Google tells me it is a low-noise NPN with a high HFE. I already have some of these, the 2N3904 and the 2n5089 which measured very high in HFE to me. Are these good subs, or should I get the MPSA18?  (Note the Silver Blues NTE470 cross reference replacements was priced anywhere from $1.13 to $113 apiece)

SUBS? MC1458P  (Wampler Ecstacy Rev 2)
Google says its a standard dual Op Amp. NTE recommends the NTE778A, anyone have an opinion? Galco says it's just a 741.

[Beaker]

Get the MPSA18. Twice the gain of a 3904 or 5088, and used in lots of circuits.

Here's some - 50 for 10 Bucks:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MPSA18-x50-Legacy-NPN-Silicon-High-gain-Low-noise-transistor-1000hFE-TO92-/171314614276?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e3259004

Still no reason not to try 3904 or 5088 in that circuit though. you might like them.


You can sub any transistor for pretty much any other with the same pinout, without any issues at all. Try loads, decide which ones sound the best. Even if the pinout is different you can still try them - you just need to twist the legs.

[rocket88]

just wanted to add to what's been said already. make a list of all the components you need to complete a bunch of builds you really want to do. then you can get an idea of what you need and how much of each component. then go searching to find for all the parts. you'll find that there are some parts that come up over and over again, so you want to keep a large amount of them in stock. also, getting parts from reliable sellers on ebay can make a huge difference in cost, and availability. there are some sellers that i use all the time, and i contract them with a list of parts and the amounts i need, 5-100, and they put together an order with a discount. this way i have them in case they do become hard to find and cost a fortune. also, if you're in the US don't forget smallbear, steve usually have a lot of parts that are hard to find at a really reasonable price.

with IC's you need to remember that different manufactures produced the same part with different numbers, IE LM741 is the same thing as UA741, the prefix is different because of the manufacturer. so the MC1458 is the same as an LM1458. the suffix can sometimes mean something important, but in my of my experience the only one that i worry about is the ICL7660s in a charge pump, it must has the "s" or you won't get the same response and ti wont work correctly.

[Silver Blues]

Bipolar Junction Transistors tend to be not very specific in applications like pedals, it'll all boil down to sound and not much else. Silicon BJTs don't have the variable bias issues of germanium ones and so any pin-equivalent BJT will drop into any circuit that takes one and the only thing different will be the tone, if anything. 5088s and 3904s and BC547/9s and BC550s and on and on will drop into a circuit that calls for an MPSA18 and work, the question is whether or not you like it. Take the Emerson Em-Drive for example, which seems to be highly variable with transistor choice, but from an electrical standpoint works no less well.

[motterpaul]

Thank you all for getting this particular thread on track. Silver, I see I can learn a lot from you. You get my point that while I can google and find out what might work - "works" is not the same as "better or best" when the goal is the TONE. That is what I want to know when I ask these questions.

This will be my last off-topic post (the rest will have the format:

"SUB? [part#] [project]

I realize I come off as something of an idiot noob when I come to new places - it is basically because I have no shame and will ask any stupid question if I get frustrated enough, but I am just trying to learn something that is new to me.

I already have thousands of parts in stock and a shopping cart full of "what I wants" at Tayda. I will also get the MPSA18. (Funny, I have the MPSA13s, and it is easy to get confused, but it is a completely different part)

[EDIT] When I need advice on specific older parts it is (1) for testing purposes to see if I want to make a circuit, BUT (2) What is best for once I know I want to commit, I will be sure get the specified parts.

Thanks again for the advice - I hate to be a PITA, but I will try to be "cool" going forward.

[Silver Blues]

Don't even worry about it, it's never a bad thing to learn something new. Yeah the MPSA13 is an NPN Darlington, with gains between 5 and 10k IIRC. I mean, it works fantastically in some circuits, but is not really the same thing as, say, the MPSA18 or 5088 or whatever.

And yes, I certainly do get what you mean  I find often that the specified semiconductor isn't what sounds best in a given circuit. My Hematoma, for example (I use this thing as an example a LOT I notice XD) calls for an RC4558 but I find it sounds so much better with a BA4560, more clarity and less fuzzy gain. (That chip is the "secret sauce" in my build haha.)

[Beaker]

""works" is not the same as "better or best" when the goal is the TONE. That is what I want to know when I ask these questions. "

And this is the point that I and others are trying to make to you Motterpaul. There is no such thing as "Best". It's all a matter of opinion. The best transistor or diode choice is the one that sounds best to you, and to you only.

What sounds best to you then varies according to what gear you are using it with. A Les Paul through a cranked Marshall JCM 800, sounds a lot different to a Danelectro through an old Supro. Throw the same pedal in between both and it's just not gonna sound the same.

Therefore component tweaking to optimise the sound to your ears is the way to go, and can't be standardised.

What you can say though, and this only comes from experience, is that some individuals on here seem to be on the same wavelength soundwise. You have to work out who they are, and start to take their advice. For example, if Rockett88 posts up that component Xsounds good in build Y, then I will probably give the same mod a go (if I have the parts handy), as he seems to have similar tastes to me when it comes to sound.

[rocket88]

just touching on the Em Drive for a moment. there is a thread over on DIYSB about replacing the transistor for others, including putting a FET in place. i have followed that guide and tried it, and after trying a bunch of different types i decided what i liked best in the end.

it all comes down to experimenting and seeing what you like best.

remember, asking "what is the best transistor for ________?" or "what is the best clipping diode for ________?" what i may think sounds best will be completely different then what you do. some things like clipping diodes will change the character of the effect, and only by experimenting will you find what is best for you in your search for tone. opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

the best way to search for the tone you want, and if you should build an effect you have 2 options. 1 listen to videos or soundcloud clip online that people make. the problem is you're gear WILL sound different then whatever you hear in the video or audio clip. that's why when people say they want to sound like hendrix/page/SRV/clapton/etc. what pedal do they need, the answer is they need to be that player and use their gear. option 2 is breadboard the effect before you build it. this is the BEST way to decide if you should and want to build an effect. you get to test in with YOUR gear, and YOUR playing.

while i too have thousands of parts in stock, and have a large list in my tayda shopping cart, you want to make a list of what you want to build and the priority for each build, and make a spreadsheet. you will be able to organize your parts, and make SURE you have what you need. plus, when you have transistors you will find some times you will get some that are out of spec or bad, so you always want more then you need.

the more organized you are, the more you research before a build, and the more you experiment the better your builds will go. plus, you will always have what you need.

[Beaker]

Were you just reading my mind???

[dbat69]

I would echo what rocket said.

Just to add a little, sometimes even the same part can sound different due to the tolerances of the component.  A BC109 can have an hfe between 120 and 800 - depending upon the circuit a low hfe might sound good whereas a high hfe would sound too harsh, or vice versa.  BUT what sounds good to me may be utter trash to someone else.

I'm still learning and finding my way, but the layouts are a good starting point and from there tweaking can be fun (but sometimes frustrating)

[motterpaul]

Ironically, I have over 5k posts at TGP, and I am always the guy telling people how ridiculous it is to ask about a certain pedal, pickup, string gauge, amp, etc without saying what you play first.

It is always a good idea - So I will describe my style in a bit. I just did not want this thread to be just about me, and in the same way a Strat sounds different from a Les Paul, I think you can use similar adjectives to describe components - like if a component  = Fender Squire, while another is a LP59RI. I think you get my drift.

Personally, I play classic rock, lead guitar. I use more gain that the AC/DC straight up JCM800 sound, but I get it through the tube pre-amps. My goal in building gain pedals is to find circuits for single channel amps that sound as good as my 5150 EVH or Marshall DSL100 high gain channels.  The Plexi-Drive circuit here is super sweet to my ears, for example.

I play a PRS 408, I have a 93 LP standard, a Strat Deluxe (96), PRS Custom 10-top 24 fret, and a couple more. My main amp is the EVH 5150iii, channel 2. I have given it a mod to balance out the volumes between ch1 & 2 (a well-known problem). My speakers are 2 greenbacks in parallel.

I went through the tone search for five years, tried JCM800s (no pedals), small DSLs and JTMs, - but I am set on my rig (over the GAS). However, now that I am building pedals I may go single channel and use drive pedals instead of the tube gain in Marshalls. I understand the variety equation in doing that, it was something I was not clued in to before since I had always used 2-channel tube amps to get my gain. I prefer 100 watt amps over 50, because 3dB gain is not much louder, but it sounds a lot richer.

I have a pedal board, Wild Horsie wah up front (its optical switch makes it so convenient), Keeley 4-knob compressor, TC chorus, Roland Phase to amp. In loop >> Tim (mostly just for lead solo volume boosts with a little added hair, plus the built-in loop lets me put delay on just my lead tones, I have a TC Flashback for delay in the Tim loop), followed by MXR 10-band EQ and MXR noise gate (rarely needed).

Favorite tones: Humbuckers; Mick Ralphs (Bad Co albums), Paul Kossoff, Joe Bonnamassa. Clapton is my favorite player, but I don't care for the over-processed Strat tone he gets. Listen to Joe B. at RAH and compare the tones when Clapton comes on stage. Joe has a LP, Clapton a Blackie, and I think Joe's tones blows Eric out of the water.

I tried the vintage route once - JCM800 2204, straight in, vintage pickup wiring from Wolfetone pickups. Didn't like it (too trebly, no upper harmonics). I decided what is perfect for Dickie betts is not for me. Went back to modern wiring and newer Marshalls.

If I was to go with the one-channel tube amp with drive pedals approach I would probably get a Suhr, Swart or build a 2204.

[motterpaul]

FYI.... I just made this YouTube showing my Katana Rev 2 build (Silver; with the J201s) going into the very cool BMP tone control/boost Mirasol posted a little while back. You can hear my playing style. My amp is a tiny, 1x12 combo (EVM12L) "Spectrum" - all tube 2 channel. I am on the clean channel. My volume is louder than it seems because the video camera mic has auto-leveling. The pops you hear are in the video - not in the circuit I built - I didn't hear them until playback. Sorry - can't get embed to work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPDCmoV30XM&feature=youtu.be

[rocket88]

beaker & dbat, what else can i say other then great minds think alike.

my comment about asking what's the best, was not directed at you, just a general statement. trust me, there's a few threads about favorite instruments, and amps you have and i don't think any one of us have the same guitar or bass, and there are only a few that have the same amps. but even then, there's huge differences between the same instrument or amp from the same company. take fender for instance, every year they change the neck profile, or i know the last time i went to a store and pick up a jazz bass i played 5 different ones, same wood, same pickups, same fretboard, each one sounded a tad different.

i know people that have played some of my gear and cant get half the tone i do. my little brother for instance, who is at juliard for bass and composition, tried using my G&L L-1000 cause he loved my tone, he couldn't play it for shit and ended up having me play something he wrote because he wanted/needed MY tone. i have pedals that i built and tried, thought they were shit cause i couldn't get the tone i wanted. i gave them to my little brother who starts messing around with it and tells me how amazing it is. just something to keep in the back of your head is all.

the point i was trying to make is that when you're chasing a specific tone the best thing to do is breadboard, breadboard, and......breadboard. you'll get to hear what it sounds like with your exact equipment with your hands and your playing style. induction brought me over to the temple of breadboarding, and i'll tell you my breadboards have becoming one of my most important tool, especially for what you keep talking about with finding a tone you're after. for me that's how i found out what kind of Si fuzzface i like. for instance i like high gain Si transistors in my fuzzfaces, others don't. they're not a smooth, more in your face/kick you in the testes kinda attitude, while lower gain ones are a little smoother, and easier to tame. i do like both but have a preference due to my experimenting and breadboarding.

and with what dbat said about difference between transistors of the same model. i once ordered 200 bc108's gain between about 200-500, i have about a third in the 200-300 range, about a third in the 300-400 range, and about a third in the 400-500 range. so test, test, test your components, and don't be afraid to experiment.

[Beaker]

"Ironically, I have over 5k posts at TGP, and I am always the guy telling people how ridiculous it is to ask about a certain pedal, pickup, string gauge, amp, etc without saying what you play first."



I on the other hand, have never posted on TGP, have just a few guitars, some with 6 strings, and some with 4. I have one amp for my 6 strings, and another for my 4 strings. I use them to play tunes on, of differing styles 'cos I like them, and sometimes play stuff by other musicians that I like. I like the sound that some guitarists make with their guitars, but not others.

I build pedals because I can't afford to buy them, and sometimes I sell a few which helps.
 

It makes no difference whatsoever which guitar anyone uses, what amp, speakers, strings, leads, straps or aftershave anyone uses, who they want to sound like, or even what type of music they like to play.

It makes no difference because no-one has the same setup, tastes, style, technique or especially ears.

All your last post tells us is that you have some nice gear. That's nice for you. It does absolutely nothing to help us to help you to decide if you want a 5088 or a 3904 in a build. You still need to do your research, settle on some likely candidates, build them and decide if you like them or not. If not, you then need to bin it, or start tweaking/modifying.

No-one can tell you what you like for you. That is for you to decide.

[Silver Blues]

More echo about the breadboards. They are an indispensable tool and it would be a great idea to have one. It makes experimenting so easy and fun, instead of nerve-wracking, time- and money-wasting and potentially board/parts-damaging. It's really nice to be able to try a circuit you think you like before committing the vero, parts and enclosure to build one.

[Beaker]

Yes, breadboards are the way to go for sure. I'm still crap at it, but getting better.

[motterpaul]

I do have a breadboard in front of me right now. Ironically I built that test box Mirosol put up a few weeks ago, and it is great, but then I wanted to daisy chain some circuits and I had some terminal blocks so I just connected jacks and pots to the bread board. Now that is my test bed for these circuits again.

I do wish I was faster at transposing schematics to breadboards. But I can only learn so much at a given time.

By building these circuits I am discovering what components are out there and how they sound. The more I do that, the more I feel comfortable doing mods. I am socketing all trannys and many caps now so I can experiment.  I have many pots on terminal blocks so I can easily try different values, etc.

I am still doing a lot of "paint by numbers," but I also know what all components do. But I am not an expert on theory yet. I played guitar for five years before I really understood music theory. Now I know a lot of it - all things in time.

[motterpaul]

In fact - Beavis got me started on all this, and in truth, as much as I love this site, if there was a similar breadboard site I would be over there more (yes, I have done all the beavis projects).

Here is an entrepreneurial thought for you - invent a breadboard where you have longer rows (like vero) and also where you can put in "cuts" as needed. Then you could build circuits from here on that breadboard in far less time than these circuits take to build.

It seems "stupid" at first, but it would actually be great for designing compact PCBs.

Do you guys have the same "five and five" radio hack breadboards that I have - or do they come with longer rows?