Some Changes Thus Far & Suggestions

[rocket88]

thanks guys, great comments and suggestions. trust me no offense taken.

i completely agree that tags would be great, but after some time researching i come up that it's not possible with the forum. i'm not saying the original way didn't work, but as far as i've found using this forum, this is the only way to allow for organization by type. you should be able to search for something using the search bar, if you know the name of it regardless of where it is on the site. before doing things to find something you had to sort through page upon page of layouts to browse and see whats there. also, keep in mind i have not even touched the requests section which has countless layouts posted there from the days pre-contributions section, which may or may not be verified and where they are won't be used. to put it into perspective there's 30 pages of 20 posts in the request section. side note, in the request section we have how may reposts because people can't find if its there.

i know this is new, and may take a little getting used to, but remember this may not be permanent, it's just something new to try for a bit. if it doesn't work it can and will change.

since tags are impossible, what other ways do you suggest organizing? what if i can get something like what happens over at DIYSB, where everything is sorted into categories, but shows things by date below? not saying it can be done with nabble, but would that be some way to keep the new and the old and make everyone happy with the change?

as far as verified or unverified sections, i think at the minimum should stay. more then 33% of the submissions have gone unverified, not counting whats hidden in the request section, compared to the main page which 5.79% have gone unverified. most of the unverified layouts get buried by conversations on other layouts. so, by at least having a verified and unverified layout section will help get more layouts verified.

frank: part of the issue with everyone's layout looking the same is that we all use different versions of DIYLC, but there's consistency in a lot of the planning (ex:little to no standing resistors). i think having a BOM is a good idea, especially for the bigger layouts, and isn't a difficult add-on when creating a layout. i think having something like a digitalbook is a neat idea, the big problem is permission issues with peoples work on the layouts.

[IvIark]

Yes this forum software is very basic, I used it in the first place because it was so basic and so would fit easily in an inline frame in the main blog but it means they're really aren't a lot of features.

If I want to look at new posts I never go in the individual forums anyway, and just click on the Topic View from the main page.  So that will always show the latest posts if someone wants a quick way to do it.

It's a tough one this because the more posts there are, the more need there is to put them in some sort of order to make it easier to find the type of effect you're looking for.  

[heuermh]

Thank you, the Topic View page is exactly what I have been looking for since the change.

[Neil mcNasty]

I am very glad to see that I am not the only one who has had these thoughts about the latest changes.
I guess sometimes it just takes one person to mention it, and then we hear from the people who are holding back their opinons in fear of stepping on someone´s toes, after they have spent days working on improving our experience.

Please remember that my criticism is all out of love for the site, and that we all love the effort that the administrators are putting into this!
But I´m sorry to declare that: the changes has not improved the site at all..., it has changed the site into something else with a totally different user interface... And this is a very important issue, as it deals directly with the nature and the functionality of the forum, and the reasons people are drawn to this place instead of other sites!

The last days I have noticed a big change in my end, as a result of the latest forum changes:
I do not visit the Contribution section anymore, since it annoys the hell out of me, as it is now almost impossible to find anything, let alone discover anything new.
I also notice that the annoyance is growing for each day/visit, and if this feeling continues...
I´ll probably be gone from this site by end of the month...

The great thing about this site, and the reason it has been my favorite of them all, was the fact that it was clean, tidy and did not have endless ammount of categories and sections!
For me it is a place for discovering new and interesting information drawn from other sites, with links to the big forums where you can go into the endless details and viewpoints that people discuss about the pedal/circuit.
This site allways stayed clean and simple (mainly because of the active use of tags for sorting/categories), with clear and concise answers/input from the comunity drawing knowledge and experience from the big sites, and I would like to see that it stays this way.

Please dont turn it into a mess like the other pedal forums, that confuses the hell out of any new visitor.
This forum has been the BEST one!
Mainly because: It was not like the other forums! It has a simple and non-confusing layout and user interface! And most of all, because of this, it has an amazing discovery potential!

Please notice that this site is the biggest entry-point for fresh diy-pedal builders, and has become this way because of it´s simplicity and non-scary appearance!

It was not broken in the first place, and it should not have been fixed!
The new features/changes could all have been done with tags, so that it actually became new features for the site, instead of becoming a new forum, with a new user interface and layout/flow, changing the whole functionality of the forum.

I beg you again:
PLEASE CHANGE IT BACK TO IT´S ORIGINAL CLEAN FORM, AND USE TAGS AS CATEGORIES INSTEAD!!!

[Chris60601]

Before the site changes again (based on the whim of only a few) perhaps an anonymous poll ought to be taken.

To counter the above, while some of the regular folks may have issues with the new feel, keep in mind that new users may not see anything wrong with it.

They will simply use it as is and think nothing of it. I will agree that most folks attention span is only a few clicks but I beg to differ and present this personal fact.
If I frequent a site for its content on a regular basis, then that means I tend to spend a significant amount of time there on each visit. I will however, lose patience at site I don't frequent. Of course, I'm only  speaking to my browsing habits.

Should the site revert based on the dislikes of one or a handful of folks that are here?
I don't know (my personal opinion; I don't think so).  On the other hand, if a large portion of the user base feels that it should,  then by all means, have at it!

We need to remember that there are folks that don't care much for change while others, thrive on it.
For those that appreciate that new car look and feel, this layout maybe something they dig. For those that don't, decent is perfectly fine. But please done fall into that; well if it wont change back, I'll probably leave-speak. That doesn't help or accomplish anything.

With the exception of Mark and Miro, there isn't anyone here THAT important to dictate  how things ought to change or not. This site did well before the changes and will continue to do well long after.

So, closing the circle (please, I am not coming down on any one or bunch of folks. We all have seen this sort of thing before) and back to the original intent, I suggest a simple vote were folks can anonymously voice concerns then go from there.

Thoughts?

[rocket88]

Good stuff so far. Again, things change not be used theirs broken, but because they evolve. Did the old site work? Hell yes. Are there things that could be done to refine it, make it easier to find things? Of course.

I do take all comments seriously, especially those that are negative, because the ultimate goal is to make the site BETTER then it was, and evolve it into an even better resource and community. With that in mind, there are changes that will work and those that won't. If there's issues they will be addressed and in a way based on input from the majority.

As I've said before there is NO way to use tags for the forum, that is ONLY for a blog setup. So as nice as it would be to do that, as if would address the issues of organizing and sorting, as well as keeping the original feel, if CAN NOT be done. The way I have organized the layouts is the ONLY WAY to do it using the software we have. So again, aside from using tags what other suggestions do you have to help organize the layouts in the contribution section?

Part of the issue is that we have so many repeat posts of either the same questions or the same topics that have been buried, so people doing find it and start another one. It's like trying to find a needle in a haystack so to speak. The site can still be streamlined and organized, and that is the ultimate goal. I completely agree that some pedal forums are difficult to search, but the number of new sections here is significantly smaller, and should be easier to navigate.

Those that are having issues with the new format that feel they can't just do what they did before and checkout the what's new, as Mark has said you can still do that and even easier then before. On the main page for the forum, click on the top where it says "Topics View." In doing so you will see everything laid out by date, this includes all sections of the forum.

Please offer suggestions in addition to comments about changes. This needs to be a discussion, not just everyone throwing out comments.

[Beaker]

Good points Zach - I'm getting used to it now, "topic View" is a big help actually.

My suggestion? putting the category headings in alphabetical order would help me!

[Chris60601]

Question: Is there a way to make the Topic View stick?

[dexxyy]

Ok, my opinions reflect Neil's and some others. It appears to me that this is change for change sake, not always for improvement, this is not a dig, this is just my take on it. Having been an admin and mod on a few forums I know that it can be a bit daunting at first and there can be a tendency to try to make your mark, when you introduce a number at once it can become a bit confusing, to then start a thread in the open forum asking for thoughts and suggestions is really only going to lead to mayhem. Remember the old adage " a camel is a racehorse as designed by a committee" . Now everybody might be happy because their little suggestions have been included, but it's just not fit for purpose.  again this is not a dig, this is what is most likely to happen given these circumstances. I think the timing of this didn't help a lot either, I know that the new admin will have known about their new positions long before it was announced and may well have been in discussions about change beforehand, but to the onlooker it looked kinda like, ladies and gentlemen here's your new admin team,BANG, the forums changed, WTF. Being more positive, there are a lot of really great changes, the library is a great idea, we should have done it ages ago, ditto the debugging section. But for me the contribution section is all over the place, previously it was the section I visited first now I just don't go there, surely it can't be coincidence that this is were the negative comments are being aimed.
Please always remember that all views are expressed solely out of love for the forum and the blog. I have been here a very long time and have no intentions of not continuing to do so, however, it may be that one of the sections I liked most I'll just not visit. That would be a real pity.

[Muadzin]

Not a big fan of the new layout. Putting everything in neat and orderly sections seems to be the hot thing to do, and there is a certain logic to that. And if you want to find something that had been posted months ago its very helpful. And yet, if you want to look at what currently is going on its a friggin' nightmare. It feels like what Microsoft did with Windows 8, doing away with the start menu and foisting those abominable tiles on its users instead.

[Chris60601]

Perhaps the best way to do this is to keep the Contributions as it was. Once a contrib has been verified, maybe then it gets moved to an appropriate classified sub?

I can see that being a benefit and should help ease the "confusion"?!

[dexxyy]

This is not a personal dig Chris, merely a counter to your post. I mean absolutely no offence and this is not meant to start an argument.

Chris60601 wrote

Before the site changes again (based on the whim of only a few) perhaps an anonymous poll ought to be taken.
(The original changes were made on the whim of a few)

To counter the above, while some of the regular folks may have issues with the new feel, keep in mind that new users may not see anything wrong with it.
They will simply use it as is and think nothing of it. I will agree that most folks attention span is only a few clicks but I beg to differ and present this personal fact.
If I frequent a site for its content on a regular basis, then that means I tend to spend a significant amount of time there on each visit. I will however, lose patience at site I don't frequent. Of course, I'm only  speaking to my browsing habits.

(Fair do's, but ideally that should be time you choose to spend, not time you HAVE to spend due to site co-ordination, also if you lose patience with sites you don't frequent then what is to stop new user losing patience here)

Should the site revert based on the dislikes of one or a handful of folks that are here?
I don't know (my personal opinion; I don't think so).  On the other hand, if a large portion of the user base feels that it should,  then by all means, have at it!

( I don't think anybody asked for the entire site to be put back the way it was, I believe that only the contribution section was an issue)

We need to remember that there are folks that don't care much for change while others, thrive on it.
For those that appreciate that new car look and feel, this layout maybe something they dig. For those that don't, decent is perfectly fine. But please done fall into that; well if it wont change back, I'll probably leave-speak. That doesn't help or accomplish anything.

(Sorry but decent isn't perfectly fine, especially when we're talking about maybes)

With the exception of Mark and Miro, there isn't anyone here THAT important to dictate  how things ought to change or not. This site did well before the changes and will continue to do well long after.

(Actually there are, cos they have)

So, closing the circle (please, I am not coming down on any one or bunch of folks. We all have seen this sort of thing before) and back to the original intent, I suggest a simple vote were folks can anonymously voice concerns then go from there.

Thoughts?
( I agree)

[Beaker]

"Perhaps the best way to do this is to keep the Contributions as it was. Once a contrib has been verified, maybe then it gets moved to an appropriate classified sub?"

That sounds like a very good idea.

That way, the discussions can flow much more easily, just as it used to. Once a layout becomes verified, then move it over to one of the categories in the verified section.

Perhaps, and this is only thinking out loud, the verified sections should have a copy of the layout only, and the comments can stay on the contributions "main" page, along with the original posted layout.

In other words, the verified section becomes more like a library. Would that work? Would it help at all?

[Chris60601]

Awe dude! non taken! I consider this just pushing ideas to see what works/fits and what does not

dialog is good!!!

[Silver Blues]

I like that idea. I think this would be the smoothest way to implement this.

[rocket88]

that's fine by me, and i like that idea a lot, but that would require people making post there with the verified layout. the time it would take to do, not to mention needing the permission of those who originally posted it would be fairly difficult. what i've done is set the unverified section back to the way it was, with one exception i left a special section for amps and PCBs as i think they should not be in with everything else. one isn't pedals and the other would be for those who want to make etch their own PCBs.

[tabbycat]

thanks indeed for not going mad and running away, rocket. am sure the temptation has been huge over the last couple of weeks. i think the place is shaping up nicely under your steady hand.

re the debate around the look of the contributions thread, the new classification system makes it way tidier and more together as a section, but speaking personally i always want to see what's new 'up front and in my face' when i land in any section (here and on any other site) so i can pick up the threads of where i left off last visit. so my preference would be for the default status to be the 'topics view' and the classified section to be the one you can click onto as an option. perfect world option. but if others feel differently or it would give you a nervous breakdown to implement, i'm easy and will still come here whatever.

some other random thoughts i had over the last week re the site evolving are that we don’t have a logo. we have the written 'guitar fx layouts' but we don’t have a logo-logo. in the logo style.
fsb has got a hand holding up a soldering iron like sword, diysb has got a transistor, ilf has a smiling knob, so i thought maybe i would mention that. maybe it would be nice to have a little logo that when people make contributions to the site that they want to link to the site, they can put that logo on, like... a logo.

possible ideas for new sections not yet covered would be ‘digital and dsp’. basically anything digital, dsp, fv-1, arduino, etc, etc. i think over the next five years that area of diy stompbox building is going to get massive. the analog stuff is sort of going in circles after a good ten year run, so dsp is the next frontier. or so it seems to me. so it would be nice (if others share that opinion, or have an interest in getting into digital) to be in at the beginning. ‘how to’ guides, ideas development, contributions, etc. also, as that stuff tends to be a bit more expensive to get into on the first rung, we could also maybe make use of our group buying potential (dsp chips for coding, pcbs, etc).

and another section that might be interesting to consider  would be pcbs. both bathtub homemade and fully blown eagle, oh park, etc, level. madbean is already well geared up for that so i suppose those here who are interested could go there instead, but it might be nice to have something in-house. even get into group runs of more complicated original contributions (with contributor’s approval). it’s an idea anyway. i just noticed i’m doing more pcb and less vero building of late.

or a more serious note, my pedal forum moment of the year was devi ever posting scat porn at ilf and getting banned (she was duly provoked so those concerned definitely had it coming to them). i laughed all afternoon.
so by way of celebrating her achievement i vote we make her an honorary administrator here and give her a whole scat porn thread all of her own so she can post all day with our blessing.

at last i think that is something we can all agree on.

[dexxyy]

Ok having played about with the topic view I think I can make it work for me. If it were possible to have it set as default I think it would be of benefit and I`ll explain why.
When I first visited the site many moons ago it was exclusively tagboard layouts which I didn`t fancy very much but I bookmarked the page for future reference. I had been building a few things over at rog/home wrecker with varying degrees of success (I hated perf and perf hated me) a few months passed and I popped in here for a look and vero was now god, I was hooked. What I really wanted to build was the English channel but there was no layout, so I requested it and got on with building some of the other great layouts here. Eventually the English channel layout appeared and I built it ( I built 1 for almost everyone I know to be more precise). Now to the point, if I was making that same journey today for say the thunderbird, I probably wouldn`t find it. As with most rog pedals of this type they describe it as a distortion stompbox, so if the designer/creators are describing it as a distortion, I would be looking in the distortion section and assuming there was no layout for it.
A lot of layouts on the home page have multiple tags because they can be different things to different people, the problem with pigeon holing things the way they are is that something in one section might be percieved by someone as being something else.
However in topic view when you see the topic you can see the sub forum to the right, ah they`re classing it as an amp in a box, wonder what else is in there, click, TAA DAA, instant tags (of a fashion).
Still this only works if topic view can be set as default.