Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

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Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

inefficiency
So I've seen a lot of guys on here recommending the use of cheap multilayer ceramic caps and such in place of electrolytic caps. A few of you guys are posting in the "Bargains" thread with some great deals on them.

The only issue/confusion I have is about polarity. I figured in most cases electrolytics were used not just because of their value, but because they are polarized.

Does this mean that only certain builds on here are suitable for these multilayer ceramics?

I know that the electrolytics are used a lot for power supplies and filtering and whatnot, so does this mean that they are only required over the likes of ceramic caps when that is their role in the circuit? Perhaps a tube pedal or something else that needs some more juice?

I tend to cram a lot into my enclosures and it can make tall electrolytics a bit of a pain, so I've been looking into all these alternatives - I'm just scared that they won't work!
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

Beaker
Multilayers are GREAT! Get an assortment pack of axial ones as well as the redials. That way you can cover the short span and the multi-row span locations.

Use them anywhere a polarity is not specified.

HOWEVER, you can use the larger values in place of the polarised electrolytic ones too. I'm sure I read that the use of polarised Caps is rarely essential in a 9V pedal circuit.

I get all my polarised electro caps from Dr. Tweek (I usually use the Tangerines), as he stocks the tiny sized ones, which makes life a whole lot easier!
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

inefficiency
Nice.

They look awesome and compact, it's just the polarity thing that I'm worried about.
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

Beaker
"The only issue/confusion I have is about polarity. I figured in most cases electrolytics were used not just because of their value, but because they are polarized."

I'm pretty sure it works the other way round - polarised electrolytics are "specified", not because they need to be polarised, rather the polarity is shown simply because it is hard to find non-polarised capacitors in values of over 1uF.
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

induction
Beaker wrote
I'm pretty sure it works the other way round - polarised electrolytics are "specified", not because they need to be polarised, rather the polarity is shown simply because it is hard to find non-polarised capacitors in values of over 1uF.
That's correct. You can always replace polarized caps with non-polarized ones, but not the other way around. In other words, if a schematic calls for polarized caps, you can use polarized or non-polarized. But if the schematic calls for non-polarized, then you can't used polarized caps. Polarized caps are never used because they are necessary, only because they are available. Polarity isn't a feature, it's a weakness.

The issue is this: Polarized caps resist DC in one direction, but they let DC pass in the other direction. If you put a polarized cap in backwards, the DC current damages the cap and it will fail, usually closed (ie it will act like a jumper). This will be especially bad if it is a filter cap on the V+ rail because it could burn out your power supply. If you accidentally install a cap backwards and supply power to the circuit, even for just a minute, take out that cap, throw it away, and replace it. It will fail, probably in the middle of a gig.

Non-polar caps are required when there is no DC bias across the cap. For a very simple example, say your entire pedal consisted of just one cap and no other components. Then your input and output would both be centered around zero volts, and would have both upward and downward voltage swings. So the cap would be reverse-biased half the time. Using a polarized cap here would be a bad idea. It wouldn't fail as quickly as it would if it had DC bias across it, but I wouldn't risk it.

You can make non-polarized caps out of polarized caps in series (C = C1*C2/(C1+C2)). Just make sure the polarities are opposite each other (either the cathodes are touching each other, or the anodes are touching each other). That way, each cap blocks DC in one direction.
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

inefficiency
In reply to this post by Beaker
Gotcha. Cheers Beaker!

EDIT: Posted before I saw your reply induction. Cheers for the explanation.

Looks like I'm getting a big order of caps in soon!
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

rocket88
Administrator
In reply to this post by Beaker
Unless they're multilayer ceramics or tantelum.

Also, for super tiny electrolytics if there is a 1 row span you can use SMD ones. Just take off the. Plastic bottom and use the little legs. You could also solder legs onto then to get wider spans. I now use them in my compact 1590a builds.
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

dbat69
In reply to this post by Beaker
Beaker wrote
Multilayers are GREAT! Get an assortment pack of axial ones as well as the redials.
Guys, can anyone give some good sources for assortment packs of axial caps? I've been looking for a little while on eBay and other suppliers I use but not found any

Cheers
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

IvIark
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

dbat69
Thanks Mark

Yes I've bought some individually too in 50s and 100s, but there are lots of values where I couldn't quite pull the trigger on larger quantities as I doubt I would use that many.

I'll try some of those other sellers too - many thanks as always.

It is strange how I haven't managed to find some of these when I've searched   maybe eBay doesn't love me enough yet

I hope you are feeling a bit better
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

Beaker
I would still reccomend getting an assortment pack. Yes some values might be rarely used in many layouts, so in theory will not get used.

However, when it comes to tweaking a pedal from stock to improve or alter it's sound slightly, I find that it is all those irregular values that come in most useful.
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

dbat69
I agree, I've got assortment packs for a number of different types of cap and then added to the stash with extras.  But I am still lacking in axial ceramics and also those big yellow MKTs (for the mojo look).
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

inefficiency
In reply to this post by rocket88
Yeah, Rocket, I know the ones you mean. I guess the only deal with those ones is that they aren't gonna span any more than 2 rows. Plus; These multilayer ceramics are cheap as hell!
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

rocket88
Administrator
Totally agree. That's why I have both.
The SMDs only get used when the layout super compact, although I may add legs to them to make them more useful.
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Re: Tantalum/Multilayer Ceramic/Electrolytic and Polarity

nocentelli
In reply to this post by induction
induction wrote
If you accidentally install a cap backwards and supply power to the circuit, even for just a minute, take out that cap, throw it away, and replace it. It will fail, probably in the middle of a gig.
It can be worse than that: A while ago, I was breadboarding a circuit that used a bipolar supply. I had two large polarised electrolytic caps, one from +ve to ground, and one from -ve to ground, as per schematic. After some tinkering, i gave up on it, and switched the power back to single supply. However, i had left one electro in place but the wrong way across the rails. I connected the (9 volt) power, and very soon after there was a quiet "phut" sound, and the top of the cap blew off and spewed a foul-smelling plume of electrolyte into the air. Only seconds before, i had been leaning over peering at the board and so only narrowly avoided being blinded by the spray.