Very new to this, any help would be killer.

[Elchalupacabra]

I purchased a Rat clone off of EBay called a Little Bear R.Attack. So I love this damn pedal but figure it could probably be tuned into a beast. What high quality components do you recommend and from where. I'm trying to source out some NOS LM308N instead of the ones that come stock. I actually bought a 2nd to work on for $20 so I can AB when done. Has anyone seen these, checked values and compared to others?

This will be my 1st time with a pedal and figured a cheap rat clone would be a fun start. Please be patient with me.


Thank you.

[rocket88]

to be honest, there's no magical "high quality components" that you can replace and change a pedal into something else. if you want to change the way the effect behaves it's about component values, and choosing values that gives the circuit the characteristics you're after.

i looked up the effect and it already has a Motorola LM308, so replacing it with another LM308 is a waste of time and money. if you're not happy with the clipping of the pedal, you can change the choices of diodes to something else like LED's, Germanium, BAT, etc. this will change the way it clips. other then that, you're going to be looking at changing certain components to alter things like frequency response, amount of gain, etc.

[Silver Blues]

I'm not tremendously familiar with the RAT circuit, but if you want a reference point to compare to one of the best-sounding RAT clones/derivatives I've heard is the Six Degrees R3 MkII. My opinion, of course, but something to think about.

But yeah changing the types of components won't do anything for you. Like Rocket said it's about values.

[Beaker]

Hi Elchupacabra, and welcome

Yes, I hate to say it but Rocket is 100% correct. You can forget any bullshit that you may have read on guitar forums about NOS mojo parts - guitar tone circuit caps for example.

Spending big bucks to change the caps, resistors, I.C. etc. supplied with the kit for NOS "mojo" parts will not make it sound any better.  It might make it look cool - but you are just as likely to run into problems with the replacement parts being physically too big to fit.

It looks like a well put together kit with quality parts - you don't get any better than Motorola chips anyway.

One of the known issues with a Rat is the tone circuit - it can be muddy on the bass, Changing tone cap VALUES can address this - changing the perfectly good caps in the kit for expensive mojo ones will not.

[Elchalupacabra]

Ok cool, that's interesting but I won't question you guys on it, I would "assume" there are some better ones out there but yes for what it actually is I can understand with you guys. What got me thinking is that there I a builder that said he pays premium for his stock and has 3 guys around the world collecting the best...which I guess is just a marketing rubbish. But yes this is my first time to go at a pedal and excited to dive in it.

Tanks for all of the advice so far.

[Silver Blues]

Yeah it's marketing guff. In your case, putting in a different chip of the same part number won't really change anything. Putting in a different part number, however, will.

[Beaker]

Yes, you are right - you can buy "upgrade" kits for many pedals, from doughnuts like JHS for example. Wether they really make your pedal sound better is highly questionable, but hey, they need to sell this stuff, so you have to excuse their hype.

And yes you are right, many pedal makers like DAM for example manage to charge a collosal premium for using "only the finest components available", and get away with it (and good luck to them I say).

But they are in the equivalent space in the market as Rolls Royce or Bentley - the willingless of some customers to pay the premium for exclusivetiy will always lead them and others to assume "it must be better"

Basically you can spend £75 to build a pedal you can sell for £500, or you can spend £20 to build a pedal you can sell for £100. Will it be as good? Probably 95 - 99% as good.

[rocket88]

Woh, why am I the bad guy? I hope you know I wasn't trying to come off as an ass or anything before, so I hope that's not how it was perceived. I type like I talk and how I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense.

Keep in mind that when people start saying "_____" insert part or pedal, is best it's a load of marketing junk. What one person thinks is best another might not. Take instruments for example, there are people that hands down will say you need an American fender, the Mexican sound and feel like crap. For me, every single American jazz bass I've played feels like shit, while the mexican feels great and the american sounds the same as the mexican.

If you look at pedals, tones of people swear by the OCD. No matter home many times I try it, no matter what version. To me it sounds terrible.

If you look at parts, a lot of people swear by the panasonic electrolytic caps, I have some and use them, but compared to the cheap ones I get from tayda, the panasonic are leaky and often off value more then the Chang or Chung caps from tayda. My attitude is if it sounds good to you, that's what matters. Don't worry about the brand.

What I would do is build you're own rat clone and play with some of the values in key areas. This will do three things. One, you'll be learning about this circuit and circuit design in general. Two, you're going to see how certain changes affect the pedal. Three, you'll really get to fine tune it to you're liking and really find what you're looking for tonally.

Btw, a warm welcome to the community.

[motterpaul]

FWIW: I saw a video from Premier Guitar on "How to upgrade your Tube Screamer" - all it entailed was changing out one stock 5% tolerance resistor with a 1% metal film resistor, and changing out one ceramic cap for a Panasonic. They also talked about trying to locate an IC from the 80s if possible.

We know from making these circuits that in most cases a pedal is already designed so the parts they use work together. But we also know they are sonically "tuned" for a middle range of amps/guitars/music styles because not everyone has the same gear.

So, what Rocket was saying is that it is possible to "tune" the tonal response of the Rat for your specific needs - if you want it to be brighter, or bassier, or to have more or less gain, for example, you can do that.

So - a better question you could give us might be "I want my Rat to sound more ____, how would I do that?"

But in terms of "upgrades" the typical ones are tiny changes you probably wouldn't even hear; and unless you really know what you are doing there is a chance you could just damage the pedal by trying it.

Still, it is possible to change the frequency response of a pedal, and to give it more or less gain. But that depends on what you want - and it is not an "improvement" unless it suits your personal style.

[clockman]

El chupacabra, greetings.
You may be about to embark on very fun and personally rewarding journey. All of the above comments come from a great group of people who have been extremely helpful. I learned a lot (pretty much everything) from them on the main page of layouts by just reading what they had to say about their respective builds. when issues came up or ideas were shared, that was where to find it.  It seemed so daunting to me at first, but Damn it was and is good reading! As far as you want to take it, it's there.
For the subject you asked about; The venerable RAT, here's some things you can check out. from the original to redesigns and mods to beyond...

http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/01/proco-rat.html
http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2013/12/proco-rat-2.html
http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2012/12/landgraff-mod.html
http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2014/05/blakemore-effects-rous.html
http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2014/07/idiotbox-blowerbox.html

enjoy the journey.

[motterpaul]

Good idea to send him some links to the Rat-specific content. I was thinking the same thing but I was away from my desk.

The fact is that there is as much money is "improving" musical equipment these days as there is in new equipment, especially with money so tight. So, when someone says they can make a standard Rat sound better, of course a lot of guys want to try it.

But we also see that a lot of it is hype. Take (for example) the EP Booster, that little box that is supposed to have the same preamp as an Echoplex which Jimmy Page & Eddie VH both used, hence it was a big part of their sound. Well, not really. The ECHOPLEX was a big part of their sound, its preamp was pretty standard. Yet people are buying those preamps now left & right now, with some boutique models going for close to $200.

What makes a boutique model? Using an oversized Panasonic capacitor that sells for $5 instead of the standard one that sells for $.05. But the big one is made for high voltage, which these boxes don't use, so it is all about looks. Axial electrolytic capacitors look more "vintage" but electronically they are not any different. But as Beaker said - you can't blame makers for wanting to make their product look sexy. Sex sells and they wnt to make money - not a crime. What A LOT of players perceive as better tone is something only they can hear. The average listener couldn't care less how our gear is made.

But, there are also changes that do sound different. How different? In MANY cases not that much, but still it is better to get that last 5% of perfection than not to get it. However, there is no "generic" improvement for any piece of gear. It is up to the player to decide what they want to improve. What gauge strings do you like, what speakers?

Now - I know you are probably thinking "how do I know what I want?" - that is what this "hobby" is all about. It isn't a simple question. That is the key to learning about all this stuff.

Elchalupacabra wrote

What got me thinking is that there I a builder that said he pays premium for his stock and has 3 guys around the world collecting the best...which I guess is just a marketing rubbish. But yes this is my first time to go at a pedal and excited to dive in it.

Yeah, to a degree that is what I would call marketing rubbish, only because we could all say that. I get my transistors from Russia, or the U.K., I get my ICs from Japan, I get my tubes from the Czech Republic - but in truth, we mostly get them on eBay, or through a few domestic and Chinese sellers that we have found generally offer good deals.

Take it one project at a time. Start small. Look at the changes people recommend, or else look at the circuit and listen to what it does for you. Also - look at the recommended reading at other sites: Geofex, FreeStompboxes.com, DIYstompboxes.com... just google "building guitar effect pedals" and start reading.

[Elchalupacabra]

Very awesome, thank you everyone for helping and working with me on this, also huge thanks for the Rat links, very cool. I ment not to offend anyone by saying marketing rubbish, but on that note can you show me a build with NOS and one without NOS components? I'm intrigued on what you mean by sexy looking, all same spec resistors don't look the same? Like I said I'm freshly new at this, looking for books on Amazon to learn as well. I most definitely want to build my own for just the fact of building my own pedal to use in the studio and on stage is just killer, the reason I'm doing the Little Bear over the BYOC is because the price and I would like to reverse this so I know what/why I like this pedal more than other clones.

[Beaker]

Here's an example - which one would you pay more for?

Burns/Baldwin Buzzaround, one of the best fuzz pedals ever designed.

A perfectly good PCB build using modern components, from pedalparts.co.uk:





A "semi-mojo" build from Arc Effects:





A full "mojo" parts (and on tagboard too!) build from Ghost Effects:

[rocket88]

no offense taken man. you got to start somewhere, and we've all been there. there's a ton of arguments over the use of mojo parts and there effect on tone. the problem is that if you tell someone these a difference they will hear one, ie the placebo effect, if you don't 9 out of 10 will not hear a difference because there really isn't.

not to mention now that you're one of us, you'll learn about effects and how components change the tone, and when you really look at the effects that are out there it's really 1 of 4 different circuits put together in different ways or different clipping diodes or slightly different component values/transistors/IC's. it's really mind blowing when you sit back and think about it.

there are so many great online resources some have been mentioned but here's what i used and still use:

Online Free -
DIY Stompboxes Forum
Freestompbox Forum
GeoFex (the holy bible of building as far as i'm concerned)
AMZ
Madbeans Forum

Worthwhile Books -
Electronics for Guitarists
Practical Electronics for Inventors

i have a bunch of other books, but these two are the most general and got me started. there's also a ton of books that you can get as pdf's if you know where to look or ask the right people, if you know what i mean.

if you're going to build your own rat, i would build the regular rat, as it's the original rat and the one people swear is the best. i built one and modified it to retain the low end of my bass, as well as change the clipping diodes to change the characteristic of the distortion so it's not sharp but smooth, and added a clean blend. it's a great starting point and an excellent pedal.

[Beaker]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Electronics-Fundamentals-Circuits-Devices-Applications/dp/0135072956/ref=dp_ob_title_bk

I have a copy of this, but mine is the 6th edition. I picked it up for £1 from a charity shop, which sure beats paying £130 for a new copy!

It's very good, and has taught me a lot.

[2liveis2die]

this page may be of help to you

http://www.electrosmash.com/proco-rat