Will I get in trouble and your opinions on a few things.....

[Dave]

So as one or two of you may have read I have been messing around with Tim Escobedo's harmonic jerculator circuit adding some interesting mods to it (my prototype is almost finished) and am toying with the idea of selling a few. My question is could this land me in trouble? I haven't exactly copied the circuit, I'd only make them in very small runs at anytime (no more than 5), I'm more than happy to credit Tim with the orginal circuit and I wont be charging much at all for them, I just dont want to step on anyones toes or get into any trouble.
That brings me onto my next point, I'd like you guy's opinions on things like pricing, colours etc. As I say, I'd only ever make them in very small runs at a time but I'd like the ones that I do make to be used.
If this post breaks any forum rules then I'm very sorry and am completely happy for it to be removed, I just tend to thing that us folk who make our own pedals tend to be a little more subjective with our opinions on pedals and the like.
Thanks for any feedback
Dave

[IvIark]

I very rarely build anything for anyone else, but I certainly wouldn't have any pangs of guilt over doing what you just mentioned.  The Harmonic Jerkulator is Tim's take on the Harmonic Percolator, yours will be your take on Tim's DIY project.  Personally I would be open about what it was based on if I was going to sell any just so no one could ever say that I was trying to claim plaudits for someone else's design.

[Dave]

Cheers Mark, that makes me feel a little better, its a very murky world this pedal selling buisness. I'm more than happy to give Tim the plaudits for the circuit, whenever I seel any of the pedals I makes I always mention what they are and link to this blog so people can see the layout if they want.
Thanks
Dave

[jwroper]

I've been thinking the same thing, but basing a pedal on the MXR Dist+ with Wampler mods. I've almost got my finished prototype ready and wanted to sell a few in small quantities. Legally am I right in thinking that a circuit can't actually be patented because of the components used and the fact that the end product is intangible (sound). I wondered at what point a pedal would be considered 'modded enough' to be a legitimately different end product from the original (e.g. could an unscrupulous build just slightly change a resistor value and pass the pedal off as his own creation)? All very Murky!

[Madferret]

Legally I don't think there's any problem so long as you don't copy a PCB layout or something that might have a copyright.  Morally? So long as you're not a complete jerk about it and claim 200 hours of R+D on a circuit that's based on someone else's and remember to give proper credit then I don't think anyone would take issue. If you want to, think of it this way: you're selling your skill in assembling the product rather than the circuit itself.  Anyone could build themselves a Jerkulator and mod it if they wanted to, but not everyone has the skills/desire, you're just providing a service for people who want a modded Jerkulator but can't build it themselves.

[piltdownman]

That's the best explanation I have read on the subject.  Makes a lot of sense.

[Geiri]

Good explanation Madferret!

I make loads of pedals and depending on size and complexity, I build from 1-4 every day. I sell them all on various places (eBay, facebook, instagram, email, etc.)

I don't feel bad about it at all because I know that I'm not set out to steal a company's business. How would I? I can't even make enough for them to feel a hit in their business. I also don't always make the same pedal. There are a few that I like a lot and make a bunch of.

Anyways, I have no problem telling what circuit I'm using and when people as if I design them, I say no. The only thing of any originality is the looks of the pedal. People aren't buying from me because it's a Deep Blue Delay or because it's a Tubescreamer. They're buying them because they've got a different look from the original ones. They can be in different sizes, colours, knobs, hardware layout and sometimes I put two circuits in one box.

If there's anyone you should watch out for, it's Michael fucking Fuller (Fulltone). He's an asshole and anyone who's had any contact with him knows that. I once sold an OCD clone on eBay and it went through with no problem so I decided to sell another one. Later that day I got an e-mail from eBay saying that my item has been removed because of copyright issues. Then I got some e-mails from Fuller where he kept on threatening me (like a fucking bitch he was). He said that he could fuck my life up, take my parents home and stuff like that. I politely told him to fuck off and I didn't hear again from him.

I'm guessing Lovepedal are the same (minues the rudeness) because I had an Eternity Burst on eBay once and it got removed.

[Vince]

I think it boils down to giving credit where it's due and price. I've seen Meatheads being passed of as original circuits for £90!... Even if they do give credit, 1 pot and a tiny board is NOT £90 pounds worth..

Greed is nasty trait.

[Geiri]

I agree with you Vince.

[Dave]

Hmm good thoughts, thanks to everyone has contributed. In that case, I will be very transparent about where my ideas came from and will go ahead with small batches at a time to see if people like them. I've tweaked the circuit to a point I'm happy with now so am going to order parts for more. I'll build another prototype to check the circuit works consistently and then I'll build my first batch.
Anyways, I wanted your thoughts on a few other design issues. For example, should i make the diode lift switch a toggle or a footswitch? A toggle would tell you what mode you are in without an LED but a footswitch might be better for changing mid song.
Also, what size box should I go with, I'm trying to decide between 125b or 1590bb, bare in mind there would be two stomps, either a third stomp or toggle, and four pots, what would you guys go with?
Thanks for any thoughts.
Dave

EDIT, forgot to mention, if the prototype goes well then I will let Mark or Miro know what I did so that they can be posted here if anyone is interested.

[IvIark]

Geiri wrote

If there's anyone you should watch out for, it's Michael fucking Fuller (Fulltone). He's an asshole and anyone who's had any contact with him knows that. I once sold an OCD clone on eBay and it went through with no problem so I decided to sell another one. Later that day I got an e-mail from eBay saying that my item has been removed because of copyright issues. Then I got some e-mails from Fuller where he kept on threatening me (like a fucking bitch he was). He said that he could fuck my life up, take my parents home and stuff like that. I politely told him to fuck off and I didn't hear again from him.

Well it looks like after never wanting to bother selling clones I'm going to have to start doing it.   I wonder whether eBay will remove any original OCDs from their listings if Voodoo Lab complained that he stole their circuit.  What a tosser.

So if anyone wants an OCD them please contact me, I'll be much cheaper than Fuller, will use better quality components and my soldering will be better!

[IvIark]

Dave wrote

EDIT, forgot to mention, if the prototype goes well then I will let Mark or Miro know what I did so that they can be posted here if anyone is interested.

Nice one

[Geiri]

So the OCD is a Voodoo Labs ripoff? That info somehow went past me through all this time!

[smoss469]

Fuller is a douchebag asshole.  Talk about an arrogant prick. Last time I saw him respond to criticism he didn't even respond the complaints. He just bragged that GC sells his products and he has more money than the person complaining.

I can't even imagine how he's still in business seeing how he responds to his customers.

[Dave]

Well I just ordered a whole load of parts for this little project of mine, I went with toggle switches in the end for the clippers (seems good enough on most other pedals) and a 1590bb (avoids people moaning about knobs being stomped on etc). Can't wait to get building another prototype!!!
Thanks
Dave

[Dave]

Yay, just got Tayda order in so will get working on my 2nd prototype soon and then hopefully onto the real ones. Cant wait!
Thanks
Dave

[PStevenson]

Tim Escebedos stuff were all built on circuits that already existed and you're building on what he built on.
he published the circuits openly back in the day so that people could build them up, build on them etc. if you have added to the circuit then it's yours to do as you please - you can give a nod to the original if you want "inspired by such and such" or whatever but you don't have to especially since he didn't!

if you directly copy something it's different - if it's open source then you have to credit the original but it is fine to sell it.
all these pedals (with exception to a few of the originals) are just copies of copies that are tweaked a bit. about half the boss range can be linked back to the tubescreamer for example -tweaked obviously.

whatever the case; doing runs of 5 or so is not going to get you in trouble. people make entire businesses on cloning pedals very openly - see BYOC or general guitar gadgets for example.

[alex.s]

I agree with the general consensus here. Unless you're charging "boutique" rates and claiming you've created a new pedal that's the be all end all of fuzz sound I see no wrong in selling a ready made pedal for those looking for that sound.

Do list what the pedal comes from as to both give credit where due and also give potential customer an idea of what they are buying: you'll steer clear of any kind of fuller/lovepedal/etcetc twattishness, and the customers will know what they are buying (more or less as it is a modded variant). After all they'll be looking for something they can trust and, in the case of a small run of pedals hand made by someone not in the business, knowing what it is based on/is similar to/can be compared to will make things easier.

I think the way Miro does his small runs of pedals is a great example of honest and clear way of going about it. He mentions the pedal he took the inspiration from, explains in which ways (at least tonally) it's been tweaked and even makes the layout/schem widely available for those with the know-how.

I've been thinking about making a small run of pedals (5, maybe 10) in the FYA way. I've been playing around with a couple circuits and, especially since work has been a bit slow for me lately, it would be a nice way to fund the re-stocking of parts and components for my hobby...!

[Dave]

Thanks chaps, thats reassuring. I am planning on giving details of where my ideas come from and providing the 2nd prototype goes well I'll be posting details on here.
Thanks
Dave