help with jcm800 pedal

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help with jcm800 pedal

fuzznaught
Hi, first off, i must say thanks to all the ppl here who have spent countless hours working on these layouts. I could have never begun to remotely know where to start on such a fantastic hobby as this. THANK YOU.
  So after getting a few builds done, ive eagerly started on the jcm800 pedal. Its not sounding too great tho (very shrill&treble-y, like listening thru headphones that are across the room). There arent many comments on that page regarding the actual build so im hoping to get a bit of insight here. The comments mention some mods such as removing some caps. Does that mean to jjust take them out altogether, or do i need to replace them with a "jumper" or piece of wire? It also says can replace a 10k resistor with 4k7 for more gain, but thete are TWO 10k resistors, which is the one to replace? I know its been verified without these mods, but in the thread on diysb it shows ppl having problems with the jcm800 pedal as well. Is this the same pedal/layout that they're having issues with? Looks like theres just two ppl in the comments section that have gotten the layout working (glenn&nappy), so if one of them sees this (or anyone that has gotten this layout to work), did you guys get it to sound even remotely like a jcm800? Any help (especially in respect to the cap removal&resistor replacing mods) is PROFOUNDLY appreciated. Thanks!
Doom or Die
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

motterpaul
I have not built this and I am no expert, but since no one has replied I will give it a shot. I did just finish the Plexi layout which is similar. The only thing I can tell you is this; J201s are tricky to work with.

If they are not biased right you might think your circuit does not work.

I would build very slowly and verify the values of all components. When sure all is good, check all of you solders for cold solder joints.

If all is good, I suggest putting all of your trimmers in the middle (half on) because full on or off may lead to no sound. I noticed this uses  100k trimmers, which is high, the Plexi uses 50k.

I finally got mine to work using an audio probe to find a cold solder joint. It was a tiny thing, but enough. When the thing suddenly started working I knew it immediately.

There are also a LOT of pots in that circuit, and in Marshall style, the setting one affects another (bass leads go to the mid pot, for example) - so its a lot of work. I recommend using a test box and turrets to make the pot connections so things do not come apart while building.

Sorry I don't have more specific answers, I had a good day today, everything worked. DO make a test box, it saves a lot of time and potential troubles.

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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

rocket88
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hey fuzznaut - here are some things i can say that may hopefully provide some insight and help. let me take your questions one at a time. i looked at the build notes, and if you want it to sound like the one in the video take Sensei Tim's advice, since that's him in the video.

1 - the mods suggest, as far as removing the cap, should be just that. take them out of the board, and don't replace replace them with jumpers. what you can do, since i did not build this yet, is you can put sockets in place of where the components are supposed to be that you're remove, and try it with nothing there and with a jumper to see how it affects the circuit. if you put a jumper in and it doesn't work simply pop it out of the socket, if you need a jumper just pop it in, no need to bust out the iron.
2 -  in order to identify where certain parts are you need to use the schematic, so Sensei Tim mentions removing the 470pF cap in the input stage and preamp stage. luckily in this effect there are only 2 470pF caps, but that may not be the case, like the 10k resistor you mention. i don't have the schematic currently, but i think that the 10k resistor to the left of Q2 is the one that needs to be changed.
3 - i haven't seen the layout posted on DIYSB, so i can't comment about the similarities between the one mark posted and the one at DIYSB. if a layout is verified here, then you can rest assured that it will work, and if there's a problem there's something going on in your build.
4 - as far as motterpaul's comment about j201's, yes they can be a bit of a pain, as the through hole ones had terrible tolerances. having 100k trimmers provides enough leeway to get correct drain voltage, there's nothing wrong with the value, don't change them.
5 - while one pot affects the other in a marshall style tone control, it's not going to be that drastic unless one pot is wired backwards, so if the mid pot is backwards and you think you've dimed it, and it's actually removing all the mids, it still shouldn't get shrill.

it's hard to tell what's going on as far as the issue with the build without any pictures of the board and the components. if you can take some good resolution pictures of the bottom and top of the board, as well as your wiring.

i would check for the following things.
1 - run a thin sharp knife between the strips of copper to ensure no solder bridges.
2 - use your DMM to check for cold solder joint. put your DMM into continuity mod (the one that beeps when there's a connection), put on lead on the copper track and touch the other one to each solder joint on that track. if you don't get a beep then the joint is bad, remove it and resolder.
3 - check that your transistors are correctly inserted - sounds like i'm being a dick, but it happens to us all, and a lot of us, including me have debugged pedals for awhile until we realize that not only are the transistors inserted wrong, but they're not even inserted.
4 - then check your wiring to make sure that things are wire correctly.
5 - make sure nothing is grounding out - board, components on the board that shouldn't be grounding, jacks, etc.
6 - check for correct value components, especially around the tonestack, input and output caps. those are going to have the biggest impact on the amount of bass you have running through and coming out of the circuit. i have had an experience where some caps fell into the wrong compartment of my cap storage box, so what i thought was 470nF turned out to be 4.7nF, needless to say it turned the pedal from sounding like crap that didn't sound right to better then expected.

in my experience it's usually the stupid, little things that cause the biggest problems in a build. i gave the steps i personally take when i debug my pedals, and hopefully you notice that i go from simplest solution to most difficult. i test after each step, this way i don't waste time doing the most time consuming things unless i have to. if i have to go through and check each component i get super meticulous and not only check using the markings on the parts, but also test with my DMM for their actual value to make sure they're correct.

let us know how it works out. i really hope you get it sorted, as i think this should be one of if not the best sounding JCM800 sounding pedals, at least that's what i can tell from the video.

edit -  i just saw this posted by Sensei Tim under the build notes "I think it was the 10k on q2, but I can't remember. You could always socket both of them and see what/if there is a difference."
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

Vince
In reply to this post by fuzznaught
I made this last week and also had bad results. I don't really have much patience with tweaking and fussing so it ended up in the bin pretty sharply. I biased all the fets correctly and it sounded REALLY shrill and harsh.. slightly better with the suggested mods but not enough to keep it. Mine also sounded noisy at higher gain settings... I realise this is no help, it just might be how the pedal sounds....
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

IvIark
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I've heard a few people say the same thing now.  I think there are better options out there for a Marshall-y sound
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

Frank_NH
I had a quick look at this circuit and did a little research this morning, so here's what I can offer:

(1) Original pedal schematic is here:

http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff443/gregwbush/jcm800emulationSchematic-electrictabs-addedoutputcapbyFlo.png

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=86407.msg848362;topicseen

(2) It seems to be a faithful reproduction of the JCM800 up to the power stage.

http://mhuss.com/MyJCM/JCM800_2204.gif

I did notice that V2b had a cathode resistor of 100K versus 10K for the Q4 jfet, but that probably wouldn't affect this circuit since Q4 is a simple source follower.

(3) Harold Sabro has a JCM800 layout at his site (same circuit though his omits the 100 nF output cap).  You could compare his with the layout here:

http://www.sabrotone.com/?attachment_id=29

(4) Some youtube videos I've seen of pedals based on this circuit sound pretty good.  However, it seems like a relatively complex circuit for the sound you get.  There are other circuits that could get you similar sounds with somewhat less complexity (e.e. Catalinbread DLS).

Anyway, hope you can get this sorted out and perhaps discover some useful mods along the way.  Good luck!
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

Vince
The Marshall Guvnor layout on here is a great build (in my opinion). I was really pleased when I built that. Great clipping options too. Maybe an alternative to think about..
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

Frank_NH
One more thing.  It would be great if someone could audio probe this circuit from the input to the output to determine if the trebly response is there from the start or suddenly begins at some specific point in the circuit.  I promised myself I wouldn't do another impulse vero until some of my PCB projects were done, but I feel the urge coming on here...I'll see if I can resist...the...temptation...grrrrrr
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

motterpaul
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Vince
As I said, I just finished the Plexi build and it sounds just like a JCM800 to me (they are similar, just a few fewer J201s). In real life the amps sounded pretty similar as well.

The Plexi was an easy build, there is only one tone control (not a whole stack of interactive pots). I did change the value of the TONE cap in the plexi and the it became much, much more useful. The circuit recommends a 10n, but I found going higher gives you much more "bass". I went with 46n.

Here is a "late edit" - when I built this I was testing on a smaller 30-wt 12ax7 preamp DeaN Markley bedroom amp, but when I took the pedal to my practice room and crank it up through my EVH 5150 is had tons of low end. I was really surprised. So, that says it is possible that a tone control may not sound like it does much if your test amp is a small thing - but pedals can sound very different on big amps. That Plexi pedal sounded huge, and had a very low noise floor. I was impressed.
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

Surgeon
In reply to this post by Vince
Vince: I have to agree with you about the governor...

I've built a lot of 800-inspired pedals and many many of them sound very good. However, yesterday night (what a coincidence) I plugged into one for my first builds, the Govnor from Tonepad... it really does have that high-mid quality that does make it sound like a jcm800, even at low volumes (that's coming from a guy who built a 2203 this summer and is in love with it).

It's an amazing pedal for "that" sound, very clear, nice gain but doesn't go over the top (just like the amp), stays crunchy and clear. I'm always amazed at how many pedals people (read "we" 'cause I include myself in this) try to play/develop to get that particular sound when Marshall already did an amazing job with this one... sometimes the simplest answer is the right one.
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

Frank_NH
Yes, the Govnor is a great pedal.  I'd like to build one for the tone stack alone.  However, I've already built the MI Audio Crunch Box, which is based on the Govnor, and it rocks too.  Haven't boxed it yet because I just keep building boards - yikes....

This particular JCM800 circuit captured my interest because it so faithfully follows the actual JCM800 preamp schematic, and puts to the test the notion of using jfets as replacements for tubes in tube circuits.  There are lots of ways you can tame the trebly response (e.g. putting a low pass filter near the output, increasing the coupling caps from 22 nF to 1 uF, etc.), but then that might make this something other than a JCM800.  To be honest, I've never played through a real JCM800 and so don't know if this circuit comes close in any way.
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

Surgeon
I'd gladly build one to compare to my amp... however, I've got a whole lotta other pedals to build before I get to this one (prioritizing is so hard huh?) and another amp in a near future so I'm not sure I'd be of much help in a reasonable time-frame.
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

rocket88
Administrator
That other amp doesn't happen to be what I've been collecting parts for and building in the deepest, darkest corner of my test lab, is it?
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

Surgeon
I was tempted to write "sadly no" but seeing how, while it's not what you're planning, it's still a Hiwatt-ish amp (6h50 from Weber) the word "sadly" doesn't have its place in that sentence....

"sadly no" is only applicable for the fact that I don't have the appropriate documentation to do one like you're going to.
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

Frank_NH
Not to derail this thread, but speaking of Hiwatt, I just finshed a Bearfoot Model H clone, and it is perhaps THE BEST overdrive/distortion I've built so far.  Must be something about that CA3130E chip.  Running my ROG Omega booster into the Model H = pure rock tone heaven!  And it's quiet too, even on my test rig.  Which also makes me think that the Dyna Red Distortion would be yet another great Marshall-style circuit to try out rather than the JCM800.
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

rocket88
Administrator
You know surgeon if I get it build and if works right, for you I'd pass on as much as I can so you can do it too. It's taking me forever to just figure out how to do the turret layout, I mean I haven't even finished it. Not to mention I'm talking to mercury to the best transformer or if they would make me one like the do for electric. It's worse then finding all the correct NOS parts for a specific build.
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

Surgeon
Frank, very good to know, I'll have to add it to "the list".

Rocket: that would be awesome of you! Keep me posted about your progress!
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

rocket88
Administrator
Will do. So far, I'm stuck on the layout. But parts sourcing looks good ATM, I've got a company that will put everything I need together. The biggest difficulty is the chassis, cause if it's too small there's a lot of noise, so I'm trying to find an orange chassis or the dimensions to get one made, and the transformer is going to be a bitch, cause it seems that it can have a major effect on tone. But without a doubt I'll keep you posted. I don't think I'll get to build it until December, plus I won't really have off till winter break. The joy of being a teacher. Lol
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

motterpaul
Speaking of parts for amps (I also really want to build a 2203 some day)...

How many of you use http://www.tubesandmore.com/ (also known as Antique Electronic Supply) right here in Phoenix - they carry stock parts (transformers, chokes, etc) for all the classic amps.
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Re: help with jcm800 pedal

Frank_NH
Back to this pedal...

It seems that the actual JCM800 amp on which it is modeled is considered very bright, and people change the 470 pf/470K parallel cap/resistor after the first tube pre-amp stage to other values to reduce the treble.  So, if I built this, I think I'd socket some of those components to see how they affect the sound.  Also, it seems the 100K trimmers are much to big.  50K or even 25K may be better and permit easier biasing.  Thoughts??