Add the BMP to Bacon Bits

[motterpaul]

Mirasol...

You added the BMP tone circuit to the LPT1 and it is my favorite all around circuit for adding tone to any other circuit.

But I also think the Bacon bits could really benefit from adding the BMP tone control.

I would attempt to do it myself if I had a file template for the bacon bits VERO.

I happened to try using the BMP/LPT to DRIVE the Keeley Katana and its effectiveness upfront was surprisingly good. Normally I put it on the back end but the fact that the BMP has an output trimmer lets you reduce its output to keep any circuit you want to drive with it from clipping.

[rocket88]

take the BMP tone stack w LP booster and put it at the end of the bacon bits. the output of the bacon bits goes to the input of the tone stack, the output of the tone stack becomes the new output of the circuit.

you can add the BMP tone stack to any circuit, if you use the layout posted.

[motterpaul]

Thanks, I understand that and have been doing it, a bunch. But I would like to see the Bacon Bits (which to me feels more like a booster itself than a drive) replace the LPB1 part of the circuit.

[rocket88]

the bacon bits is a booster. the problem with doing what you're suggestion is you will end up with a large daughterboard with the tone stack. the whole point of doing it the way it's been done, with the LPB1, is that it keeps the board fairly small, and the LPB1 is acting as a gain recovery stage rather then an actual booster.

it's not that it's impossible, but rather impractical IMHO.

[motterpaul]

I have been putting all kinds of circuits together to see what they do, and I like the BMP but would like to see how sounds on the Bacon bits (with the BMP) in place of the LPT.

Bacon Bits has a smoother sound with more headroom, to my ear, which makes it a better fit for pairing with other circuits without having to deal with boosting unwanted noise and the clipping that comes off the LPT when it is feeding certain circuits.

To clarify - the theory is that the LPT is acting like a recovery stage, but in practical use it is a pretty powerful booster. I would like to try the Bacon Bits in its place, but add BMP, because it feels more like a 'recovery" boost than the LPT does to me.

[dexxyy]

" Normally I put it on the back end but the fact that the BMP has an output trimmer lets you reduce its output to keep any circuit you want to drive with it from clipping. "

The output trimmer belongs to the LPB part of the circuit not the tonestack. When you tag the tonestack onto the end of a circuit you invariably suffer volume drop, the purpose of the LPB is to raise the volume back to the level it was at before the tonestack was introduced, not to boost the original circuit.

"Bacon Bits has a smoother sound with more headroom, to my ear, which makes it a better fit for pairing with other circuits without having to deal with boosting unwanted noise and the clipping that comes off the LPT when it is feeding certain circuits."

The LPB isn`t feeding the circuit, it`s tagged on the end and is only meant to be used to recover the volume drop.

 "To clarify - the theory is that the LPT is acting like a recovery stage, but in practical use it is a pretty powerful booster."

Only if you set the output trimmer to high. The purpose of the trimmer is to set it so the volume of the circuit is the same as it was before the tonestack was introduced.

"I would like to try the Bacon Bits in its place, but add BMP, because it feels more like a 'recovery" boost than the LPT does to me. "

As Rocket has already said, you will end up with an unpractical sized daughterboard, probably around 17x11, as well as adding the tonestack components you will need to add a trimmer to the board to set the recovery level.

anyway, here`s the tonestack part of the circuit, try it and see.
 

[boratto]

i think this is a great great idea! We need a volunteer!

[dexxyy]

Volunteer for what???

[boratto]

god i see it´s done

[motterpaul]

Thanks, Dexxy. I figured that what you show is the tone-stack part of the circuit. I was not sure if it also needed + or - supply, but I guess that comes in the recovery phase.

The rest of this (about the LPT following the tone stack and being a recovery phase,) I already understood that as I stated early on.

When I was referring to the LPT feeding (overloading) other circuits I was referring to separate circuits, like the Katana you can drive with it. I know you can turn down the trimmer to reduce the gain, (I also tried lower gain transistors in the LPT which is also pretty effective), but also somehow these boosts sound best when on full (more sustain, richer tone), so while I could turn back the trimmer (as I also mentioned in posts above) I would just like to see how other boosts sound with BMP.

I realize my goal needs to be learning how to add BMP to circuits on my own without losing gain. And it is true that Bacon Bits is fairly big. Personally, I don't like daughterboards and I think I can find ways (once I find a combination I like) of putting everything on one board and eliminating redundant parts.

Frinstance the Klon is a fairly big circuit, with three ICs, 1 tranny and 3 diodes, so it isn't as if size is an actual logistic barrier when it comes to builds, it's just a matter of what you want. To me, one big layout seems easier to deal with than daughter boards anyway. Those are fine if you want a dual design pedal like a Tim or KOT, but I am looking for a single switch design that gives me what I want.

Personally, I love the BMP (one-knob) style of tone control versus separate "bass" "treble" "mid" - it has been my experience that if anything in a given circuit falls short, it is the response of various tone pots. To me, the BMP is more effective on its own than most of the three pot tone control solutions i have heard - so if you want to save space, in the long run I would rather have one very effective tone control than three marginal ones.

This is just my thought process now. I also just started on the JCM800 which has 6 pots; three of them highly interactive tone pots. Plus, I just received a lot of pots so I have the exact pot types as specified in the layout. Maybe I will change my mind.

[motterpaul]

Oh, I see now why everyone kept telling me the LPB was the recovery phase and the trimmer was on it, not the BMP - because I used just the term BMP to refer to the entire BMP/LPB circuit. So, to be clear, I do understand the trimmer is for the LPB, not the BMP.

[dexxyy]

Ok I`m becoming confused about what you want from this circuit. Do you want to use this as intended ie. to add a tone control to a circuit that doesn`t have one, or do you want to build a standalone boost with a tone control?

[rocket88]

Me too. Unless the effect has a massive amount of output the BMP tonestack will suck too much of the overall output because it's a passive tone control. This is why we place the LBP after it is to recover the loss of gain.

What I'm getting is you want to have the bacon bits after the tonestack, which would be like a gain recovery stage for another circuit. This would be way to big to be worth doing to be placed after a circuit.

[motterpaul]

I don't have an end goal except to educate myself on the possibilities of sound from different circuits.

All I want to do is to hear how the BMP tone stack sounds with a different boost. I don't care about the size, I only care about the tone. And then I want to see how that pairs with other circuits, either in front or in back.

I have tried pairing the BMP/LBP with other circuits and it is not bad, but in front it overdrives them into clipping. Yes, you can reduce the output but it doesn't quite sound the same. The Bacon Bits does not seem to be so gainy.

This is in the description of Bacon Bits...

"The BaconBits Booster is a simple op-amp based booster powered off a split rail supply. It can be used as a stand-alone boost to drive the front end of a tube amp or another effect such as an overdrive. The BaconBits utilizes an input buffer which feeds into a negative feedback gain stage. The result is a clean, high headroom boost that adds a lot of “shine” to the guitar at lower boost settings and dynamic, sparkling overdrive at high boost settings.

Frankly, while I appreciate it a lot when people give constructive information and advice, I don't really need to be retold things I already understand - such as that the LPB is the recovery stage, that the BMP is passive, that Bacon Bits is a bigger circuit.

When you put the BMP/LBP in front of the Katana and turn it up it clips the Katana. If you trim it back it sounds pretty good, but not exactly ballsy enough. I am interested in how the Bacon Bits as a booster for the BMP pairs up (in front of) other circuits.

The goal for me is just to hear how it sounds.

So - thank you for the input. This is just part of my process for learning. No end goal here yet.

[rocket88]

So if your goal is to just add a BMP tone stack to any boost, you need to take dexxyy's layout for the tone stack and put it at the end of the boost. Otherwise you need to learn to create layouts so you can intigrate them into any circuit you want. Especially since you're referring to a layout that is ment as an add-on tone control for other circuits, not a stand-alone effect.

Btw, part of the reason you keel getting told the same info about this is that you are rather unclear in your ideas & goals, so we are going on what you're saying, well typing rather. Also, if you set the trimmer right on the BMP tone stack LBP boost you will not overdrive the next effect, you have it set too high. I don't care if you're heard it a million times, but if you're using it wrong you're not going to get the disiered effect.

[motterpaul]

You know, it's hard to know how other people read me, but I suspect a big part of the problem is that I am not an experienced pedal designer. So, if I am not clear it isn't for lack of caring, it is just that I cannot predict how anything I write will sound to you guys who may be used to seeing different terminology.

Ironically, I do write for a living, with literally thousands of articles online. Google my real name (Paul first) and you will see.

As far as this concept goes - it's just what I said "I just want to hear how the BMP boosted by Bacon Bits sounds." That's all there is.

Does size really matter? Seems to me sound matters the most. The difference is a few dollars and possibly a larger enclosure. Also, as I said, if I get BMP to replace the multiple tone knobs in the other circuit I want to pair it with, I reduce the overall size of the combined circuits.

For example. I use a Tim. I personally find the passive tone controls to be a huge waste of space. The same controls are on the Timmy. Why not take those off, but add a BMP (made active either with a booster or somehow in the Timmy with a recovery stage).

These are valid ideas, right? Beyond, that, I thought this was a simple request that I didn't realize I would have to justify making. Unfortunately, I also have a day job, so if you guys get to post about pedals all day I really envy you. Myself, I have to get ready to fly to Florida for business tomorrow.

Cheers - here's to better pedals. Thanks again for the layout.

[dexxyy]

"When you put the BMP/LBP in front of the Katana and turn it up it clips the Katana"
 
 The Katana is clipping because it`s being fed a boosted signal, do you really think using a different booster will stop that, especially a booster that actually sends itself into overdrive? If you don`t want it to clip it why not just put the tonestack section at the front end of the Katana, it is a booster after all.

" I am interested in how the Bacon Bits as a booster for the BMP pairs up (in front of) other circuits."

The bacon bits along with other line driver type boosters are meant to boost the signal without colouring the tone (or as little as poss) hence why they aren't built with a tonestack, the tone is then coloured by the amp/effect the booster is driving.



" I don't really need to be retold things I already understand - such as that the LPB is the recovery stage, that the BMP is passive, that Bacon Bits is a bigger circuit. "

Well actually you do because a gain recovery stage comes after a loss in volume, you are putting it at the front end of another circuit basically making it a booster, a different thing entirely.

"The goal for me is just to hear how it sounds. "

You have the tonestack layout, you have the bacon bits layout, knock yourself out.

[dexxyy]

motterpaul wrote

You know, it's hard to know how other people read me, but I suspect a big part of the problem is that I am not an experienced pedal designer. So, if I am not clear it isn't for lack of caring, it is just that I cannot predict how anything I write will sound to you guys who may be used to seeing different terminology.

Ironically, I do write for a living, with literally thousands of articles online. Google my real name (Paul first) and you will see.

Really, good for you

As far as this concept goes - it's just what I said "I just want to hear how the BMP boosted by Bacon Bits sounds." That's all there is.

Nope, your also requesting someone draws up a layout to suit your whim

Does size really matter? Seems to me sound matters the most. The difference is a few dollars and possibly a larger enclosure. Also, as I said, if I get BMP to replace the multiple tone knobs in the other circuit I want to pair it with, I reduce the overall size of the combined circuits.

For example. I use a Tim. I personally find the passive tone controls to be a huge waste of space. The same controls are on the Timmy. Why not take those off, but add a BMP (made active either with a booster or somehow in the Timmy with a recovery stage).

Yep, that would be the BMP tonestack with LPB1 recovery stage

These are valid ideas, right? Beyond, that, I thought this was a simple request that I didn't realize I would have to justify making. Unfortunately, I also have a day job, so if you guys get to post about pedals all day I really envy you. Myself, I have to get ready to fly to Florida for business tomorrow.

And we are just a bunch of assholes who sit about all day waiting to help you on your whimsical quest for tone, right up to the point you made that statement.

Cheers - here's to better pedals. Thanks again for the layout.

 
I don`t want to hijack this thread but could someone do a drawing for me, I want to re-invent the wheel, I`d like to find out how it would work if they were square, oh and I`d like to fit them on my roof. Just to see what it would be like.

[motterpaul]

Okay - I will try to write slower. (heh heh, that's just a writers joke, don't take it seriously).

Here is probably where I was not clear enough. You say I have a "writing problem" and perhaps you are correct. Part of the problem is that because I write for living I tend to write more casually when I'm writing in forums, because it is "for pleasure".

I wrote this:

"When you put the BMP/LBP in front of the Katana and turn it up it clips the Katana. If you trim it back it sounds pretty good, but not exactly ballsy enough."

The key word there was "trim" - as in "trimpot" - there is only one in the LPB circuit and it is there to trim down the output of the LPB. I am not sure what I said to make you think I didn't understand that. Maybe its what I didn't say, like "I know what a trimpot does." Maybe you thought I had confused the trim pot in the BMP/LPB with the Katana's? But I think I would have been more specific if I was going to start talking about trimming the Katana. Am I over-thinking this? Yes, definitely.

Anyway - getting back to my writing problem:

What I was trying to convey is this:  I know exactly what the trimpot I tried does in the circuit (tame the LPB) and I said that when I tried it on full the following circuit sounded distorted. So, I trimmed it back, and then I felt the following circuit lost its mojo.  

So I was just saying it was redundant for me to be told to try the trimpot, the purpose of the trimpot, etc etc. because I had already said I had been down that road. At least in my mind.

As for whether I think the Bacon Bits will sound better - I don't know yet. This is just a journey for me where I am trying new things. Maybe it will, maybe it won't - but at least I will then know how it sounds - which is really my main goal anyway.

And yes, if it worked out as I wanted, then the goal would be to replace the tone controls in following circuits, because as I also said...

"For example. I use a Tim. I personally find the passive tone controls to be a huge waste of space. The same controls are on the Timmy. Why not take those off, but add a BMP (made active either with a booster or somehow in the Timmy with a recovery stage)."

That sentence also made sense to me, but once again, it only makes sense if you assume I know what a booster does, or the definition of "recovery stage" - But if you choose to assume I don't know anything then I guess it just sounds like pure nonsense. It didn't to me when I wrote it, but I am not the one reading it.

Once again, because I can't see my writing the same way you guys see it, it is very hard for me to understand where I am not being clear.  So, when I get told things I already know - I only mention that it isn't necessary to tell me those things because in my mind I thought I had already clearly conveyed that I do indeed understand those concepts.

But with my writing problem, I guess I didn't. What to do?

It seems a little ridiculous to have to preface every message with a list of things I know, so I guess I might as well just stop posting here since explaining myself over & over again really just takes too much time. And that is a shame, because I do realize that there are a lot of nice people in this community, but for some reason I just seem to rub some people the wrong way.

I really do appreciate the useful answers a great deal. And I really want to be clear about that - including the time you just spent putting up that graph of the BMP, Dexxy. And I do NOT want that sentence to be misunderstood, which is why I tend to say "thank you" so often.

Now I have tonestack and the bacon bits. Thank you, for helping me knock myself out.

[motterpaul]

I don`t want to hijack this thread but could someone do a drawing for me, I want to re-invent the wheel, I`d like to find out how it would work if they were square, oh and I`d like to fit them on my roof. Just to see what it would be like.

If that is the way you really saw my request - then I apologize. Once again its the things I don't understand that get me in trouble here.

See, I figured that if you had the template for the Bacon Bits ready that adding the part you just put up would easy.

It would almost be like putting a daughter board in with another circuit - just show me (or tell me) how they go together.

It's okay, though. I got your drawing and that is all I needed, so once again thank you.

And goodbye. I am not posting here anymore because I really don't get the attitude. Maybe I will someday realize what an asshat I have been, but right now I just don't see it.