Dallas Rangemaster Recommendations?

[motterpaul]

FYI: From my friend from the Fuzz Videos: DIY Guitar Pedals

+Paul Motter

My stash of VI are all over the place, generally 60-70 to 200. When you get up around 150 the leakage makes them a little unusable. Leakage is the most important with 125's though as conversations i have had would indicate that not all 125's are the same. Luckily (for me) my batch are from the good pile!

[rocket88]

let me make this perfectly clear. you're trying to bait me to react to you, and i'm not going to do that anymore.

1 - my first real interaction with you is was on the thread by Javi entitled "Newbie Questions and Doubts" to which you attacked many of the senior members of community, and i stood up. this is not counting the many times previously that i provided help positively, and never even got a thank you from you. for these reasons you have left nothing but a sour taste in my mouth, and the only times i have commented to you has been when you've provided wrong information to "help" someone, and i do not want them to think it's correct.

2 - throughout all my issues with you, and i pointed out the main reason i still don't like you, and try my best not to help you is because not once have you ever said you were wrong and/or apologize.

3 - making comments like

"I thought I saw a build of a fuzz (maybe rangemaster) in "show us your pedals""

and

"Now, since I am discussing different transistors, and biasing, and have high output pickups, and since I have not yet heard what I might achieve, I don't know how the "harder distortion" might sound. But since we are talking about Germaniums, it seems pretty logical that the aforementioned "distortion" will sound  more like "fuzz" than a mere boost - otherwise it wouldn't be talking about clipping and distortion (are those features of a boost? no.) "

you are making assumptions about what it will do and what it will sound like, dispute stating you don't know what to expect. if you wanted to know what a treblebooster will do and sound like check out videos on youtube, or look up how they are used. the rangemaster came out to help counteract the dark nature of british amps, like marshalls, but you know that since you wrote that article on the history of marshalls. this is why many british players like toni iomi used them.

the idea of a booster is not to create fuzz, its to increase the output volume of your instrument, this is why they are "clean" or "transparent" boosts. some, by nature of their design can distort, and if you put them in front of a distorted or on the verge of breakup amp it will push it to the "sweet" spot. the idea of a boost is not that the boost causes distortion, that's what an overdrive, distortion, or fuzz is for.

and your comment "I am really trying to find a good build for the AC125s I have, something that  boosts  mostly, but also has a decent fuzz sound on its own. " implies that is what you're looking to do, and again, a boost is not going to give you a decent fuzz sound, that's not what it does.

4 -  hard distortion do not make a fuzz. a fuzz, overdrive, and distortion while they have similar characteristics, as far as clipping goes, are not the same and by many accounts not even similar. your statements show a lack of understanding of the terminology, hence i pointed that out. this is not the first time someone said that to you, and i'm not talking about me saying it.

5 - if you read the article from Geofex, then you would see that R.G. Keen talks about the gain ranges you "want" for it to work right, which is really 60-80hfe, and you would know that the bias network in front allows for a range of transistor hfe and have the effect work right. if you use something other then what is recommended you will need to alter the bias network.

6 -  i started my post with "i'm only going to say this" is due to the same reasons mentioned in 1 & 2. i will not provide you with help, but decided to give you some direction.

7 - you want to find the thread, all you need to do is use the search function, i will not do it for you, you are a big boy and i think you can handle that based on your expertise. not to mention since i stated it is pinned, all you have to do is look at the threads that have been pinned, which there's a massive 5 pinned threads.

8 - you must have a major inferiority complex if you think i'm always talking down to you. do you get insulted when Mr. Wizard would simply say that a kid was wrong? you've got to get over yourself. i've told you before, i talk the way i talk, if you don't like it tough shit. i don't care if you like my tone or not. either put your big boy pants on and replay without trying to start something with me or just be pissy about it, cause it doesn't hurt me one bit.

as far as i'm concerned go pound salt. i'm out of patients and i'm done. good luck.

[motterpaul]

I seemed confused in EHX Overdrive because I didn't know that 5087s were PNP? The thing is 5088s and 5089s are both NPN, and usually consecutive models numbers like that mean they are new models that have replaced older models, of almost identical characteristics, so that was what I assumed. I just didn't notice that the notes for the circuit said to use PNPs.

Like I said, I just started with Ge, and I am not used to the transistor model numbers, and that is a positive supply effect. So, it just seemed right to assume those 5087s (so close to 5088s and 5089s) were NPNs rather than PNPs.

I understand what you are saying, but that was also two weeks ago when I was just getting started. What Rocket does not seem to understand is that (a) I definitely know the difference between boosters and fuzzes (and all other pedal definitions, including various ways of clipping, etc.) And that by the time he recommends I read something usually I have read it.

That is why I say "If you realize I do know more than you seem to think, you won't interpret what I say as if I don't know anything) - So I used Dallas Rangemaster and fuzz in the same sentence - that does not mean I think they are the same thing. Yes, you could surmise that I wouldn't be surprised if it sounded a little "fuzzy" if you got it to overdrive, especially if you read geofex, but I am still in the building phase so I hadn't heard it yet. It doesn't mean I don't know the difference between boost & fuzz.

And if it remains a completely clean boost no matter how much you over-bias it, or how high in HFE you get - I will be surprised, because most Ge trannies tend to fuzz up when overdriven, and that's why we love them, right?

What can take time is learning some of the practical things (like that 5087s are PNP). Or why my power inverters are still heating up. But even my friend from DIY pedals has had the same problem. (He recommended switching to a different chip - the TC1044scpa, or the LT1054. he does not use the ICL7660 or the Max1044 - ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZPUk-n67jI

EDIT: also Travis - while I may have said I couldn't get it working I also said I knew I built it perfectly.  It "worked" but the problem was the output was lower than unity, which from what I read happens when the transistor is not biased correctly and it is a fixed bias circuit.

Here is what gets me - it seems to me people here only read the first two sentences before they respond. (Even I have done it) Arguments make that happen. If everyone just chilled out we would get communicate a lot better.

[Silver Blues]

Your ICL7660S are heating up? That shouldn't happen. The inverter circuit is dead simple and should not cause any problems. There's nothing wrong with the 7660S as an IC in itself. What I have found however is that if you short the chip it can kill it (I don't know how, but I killed one this way once).

[motterpaul]

Rocket...

I had put that old thread out of my mind, and seemingly so had everyone else - except for you. You keep bringing it up.

So I just went back and re-read and, and I see that I apologized to Javi and to you in that very thread. And I thanked you there for your very valuable contributions and attempts to help me learn.

So - now I have come a long way whether you choose to recognize it or not. And did I read correctly that you have an EE degree? I am completely self-taught, and my background was music, not electronics, so anything having to do with audio or electronics I learned purely by pushing myself to read up on it and learn it.

But I do know audio, and I do know music, and recording studio technology and theories on sound physics and acoustics. And now learning actual electronics is a whole new world for me, but I love it. At 60 years old, I am proud that I am still learning.

So, I sometimes speak freely, using the words I know from my personal, deep experience in audio and music, to describe conceptual ideas in pedals. That is just me. But unlike you, I disagree with you that I don;t know what words mean. You really mis-read me, and although I have said it 100 times, you don;t want to hear me. If you read me like I know what I an talking about, the things I say would make far more sense. But instead it seems you would rather find ways to pick what I say apart, take it out of context, and use it to demean me.

I know people who have done that to me professionally - and by most accounts they are not people that other professionals want to know. So, all I can say is this - "don't be that guy." - Have some tolerance and try to understand where people are coming from.

If you, with an EE background, came to a recording forum and started asking about how to EQ a bass drum, mic a piano, record a string bass, modeling plugins, the difference between Neumann and AKG mics, etc, I would be happy to help you. And I would try to do it in a manner that you understood.

And once again, the only thing I said in that thread that I really meant, is that while you said "we are all adults here," do adults really resort to using phrases like "asshole, douchebag, liar, and put on your big boy pants?" Really?

No, they don't.

[motterpaul]

Silver, I have built 2 now, and I have built plenty of charge pumps with no problems, but both of these really heat up.  It is like hot is going to ground.

I don't know why. The guy on YouTube who had the same problem said he noticed when he plugged in another effect. But in my case it is singular effects.

Here is a picture of my build:

http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s527/Paul_Motter/DSC03198_zpskldoigwo.jpg~original

[Travis]

I use the 7660S as a voltage inverter all the time with no problems. If it's heating up then you probably have an unwanted bridge, some problem with a link or cut, or some issue with your wiring

I've had this problem before, and it came down to a mistake in my build. The 7660S works fine, but the TC1044 has a higher max voltage rating, which kinda makes it better because you can get higher voltages with it. LT1054 is even better with a max voltage of 15V.

[rocket88]

You know nothing of me. I have never, ever, ever said that I had an EE degree, as I do not. I have learned everything I have through hard work, reading, and the experience of others. I have worked my ass off to know what I know, so don't sit there and make it seem like I just have it, it's massively insulting. That is how I started building instruments as well. I've spent years learning, and continue to learn, as if you stop learning you might as well be dead, but I do know a thing or two. You say you read something  before I mention it, well maybe you didn't read it as well as you thought. Just like if you listen to a song over and over, you notice different things each time. Example, the doors "the end" at the end of the song when it seems Morrison isn't saying anything and the music gets louder, if you listen carefully you can hear Morrison saying "kill, kill, fuck, fuck" over and over. If you just listened to someone and thought about what they said you might see things differently and meant a thing or two.

In fact, since you re-read that thread, you should have seen what I said I do for living. I have let it go, I simply pointed out the first real interacting I had with you, which happened to be that thread, and no you never apologized to me, but it's ok, because you've made it clear to me that helping you is not something I should do.

Adults do say things that I have said, one if which I had removed before you responded, and I said that it was over the line. And yes, saying you should put your big boy pants on is telling you to grow up. What adults don't do is pull the passive aggressive crap you pull on me.

Travis put it very well why I have no more patients for you. Every time I tell you something you try to tell me I'm wrong and a jerk. You don't know nearly as much as you think you do, and it would be wise to listen to those who have been where you are. Case in point, You made a comment about being able to troubleshoot any build in an hour or so, but you can't get a rangemaster to work, so something wrong. If you say it's working, but not perfectly that means it's not working, end of story. This can be due to your own mistakes or faulty parts. If you say "I know it's perfect" then you've got faulty parts, it's not rocket science, but you need to say "I could have fucked up."

Your age, and past experiences are no excuse for your actions. There had been no demoralizing, or concise don't tone until you have been passive aggressive with me. I am not, not have I been "that guy." You want a reaction, you know I will react and you get the reaction then play victim. As I said before I will not be offering you help or advice in the future. I wish you well on your journey through effects building and electronics. You do not need to respond to my comment, it's over and done. Good luck.

[motterpaul]

I double-checked everything - swapped out all caps, reflowed all solder.

I get some sound now, but it is very faint (and yes, fuzzy) and the IC is still burning up. I changed all the caps & put in a new IC and a different AC125. The output is below unity gain. The volume & bias pot work, but re best with everything on full.



and solder:

[induction]

Hi Paul.

Your boost pot is wired wrong (you need to swap the connections for lugs 2 and 3), and your jumper underneath the charge pump IC is connected to the wrong row (it should go from row 1 to row 3, yours goes from row 1 to row 4).

[motterpaul]

Induction to the rescue. This just shows that I should always post pictures earlier in the process.

I think the pot is wired right tho I know it is hard to tell, but the jumper, you are probably right and I will check it in the morning. I know it is hard to see.

Thank you!

[induction]

I agree lugs 1 and 2 are a bit hard to see, partially blocked by the green wire, though I think I can correctly distinguish them. It looks like lug 1 is correct and lug 2 is going where lug 3 is supposed to go.

But the routing of the wire for lug 3 is very easy to follow, and it's definitely going where lug 2 is supposed to go.

[dexxyy]

motterpaul wrote

Induction to the rescue. This just shows that I should always post pictures earlier in the process.

Ok, this is NOT a criticism NOR is it a personal attack. This is an observation and attempt to help.

This also shows that neither your building or troubleshooting skills are as good as you thought.

Remedy

Your building skills will improve with time as no doubt they already have, but not to the degree you think they have. Keep building, get better. Practice really does make perfect.

Troubleshooting

Here`s how I do it. First and, by far, most important, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, accept that there is a very high probability you have screwed up somewhere no matter how meticulous you think you have been while building.
In over 240 pedal builds I have had only 4 bad components, every other problem (and there have been lots) has been builder error.

1) Knife the gaps (really should be the mantra for this blog lol), the easiest thing to troubleshoot and one of the most common faults. Forget how clean your solder looks, just knife them to be 100% sure. Have a good look for cold solder joints at this point too.

Try layout again.

2) Component placement. Again accept you have possibly screwed up here no matter how careful you think you`ve been. Firstly I`ll give it a quick look. If nothing jumps out I print out an oversize pic of the layout and go over it 3 times, I use 3 different coloured highlighters and work from left to right, top to bottom highlighting each component as I check it. 3 times might seem like overkill but there have been occasions I`ve found errors I missed on the first 2 passes even after fixing errors I had found. Make sure you include your wiring and any external components you have made in this check.

If you found errors and fixed them try your layout again.

3) Voltages. Take voltage readings of any IC`s and transistors and compare them to expected voltages to try and locate problem areas. If unsure ask for help in the forum quoting pin voltages.

4) Audio probe. If all the other tests check out and your voltages are ok then probe the circuit from input to out put (use the schematic for this) once you source were your signal stops should highlight where your fault lies.

For unverified layouts there may also be errors in the layout/schematic

Hope this helps

[Beaker]

"Here`s how I do it. First and, by far, most important, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, accept that there is a very high probability you have screwed up somewhere no matter how meticulous you think you have been while building.
In over 240 pedal builds I have had only 4 bad components, every other problem (and there have been lots) has been builder error."

And this sentence:

"2) Component placement. Again accept you have possibly screwed up here no matter how careful you think you`ve been."

This really hits the nail on the the head Dexxyy, but I would actually go further. Rather than "accept you have possibly screwed up", I assume I have definately screwed up. At least 'til I prove otherwise.

I am slightly dyslexic, and prone to misreading the simplest of things, so I always approach a finished build with the probability that there will be errors.

Everything has to be checked, double checked and checked again. I also use Dexxyy's multiple pass, multiple highlighter method.

While I am happy to fire up a regular fuzz or overdrive without doing these checks, on the basis that no amount of errors will cause harm, anything that involves voltage regulators or inverters, no matter how simple, is subject to full scrutiny first.

Basically, I don't like fires - I'm not nicknamed Beaker for no reason, and my workshop is in my cellar with limited escape options!

[motterpaul]

Of course I must swallow any pride and say my troubleshooting was flawed.  

I really didn't look close enough, and Induc is also even right about the pot leads being reversed. I am also getting some dyslexia, I swore I saw those numbers as 1,2,3 on the diagram, but they aren't. The weird thing is that this dyslexia is happening more as I get older, and no one ever told me that can happen.

I also admit that I didn't even get as far as checking that the links were right yesterday. I checked everything else was in place but I missed the link probably because I look at the board after I make cuts & links, but before I start filling in components, and I fooled myself into thinking all of that was already good.

So, I now realize that misplaced links have messed me up before and that it takes me awhile to even think about checking them. So, I really need to change that troubleshooting habit.

Unfortunately, I was a bit tired and overwrought yesterday, and building this while I was also posting here which is not a good idea. But that is my own responsibility. That phrase is a personal joke, because it's what the BBC used to say when a public official screwed up because he was drunk. "He admitted to being tired and overwrought." No, I wasn't drunk yesterday, but I was under the influence of a sleep deprivation brain fog.

You know, practice really is the best way to learn, because you develop processes that work. Besides senior dyslexia onset, another of my struggles is counting holes, because I look at them and say to myself "That's five holes" and then I count it and have to think, "Okay, did I mean to use hole five, or did I want five spaces and use hole six?" (I think we all know that one). Then you have to go back and count everything again.

So, now I have a process for counting holes and remembering which one I need to fill. Instead of just thinking of a number, I think "pop" as in "1,2,3,4,5, pop" - it goes in hole six.

Of course when it is three holes or less I don't really count, because (I think) I can just see what it is. But obviously I just made that mistake so that means what I take for granted can mess me up the most, so a lesson there.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with this build, and if I get stuck on future builds I will probably just post pics earlier. I think most of us prefer to find our own problems though.

And while I do always assume I have fucked up first, what I need to do is to keep checking and be more systematic about troubleshooting; keep a checklist of things to check, because I didn't check things like the links. The pot, that snuck up on me. Thanks to all for your time, I really do appreciate the effort.

[Travis]

[motterpaul]

Now to your advice - I agree about bad components usually NOT being the problem. I replaced the caps after the IC got hot, but after taking them out they tested okay. But I replaced with higher voltage caps (I had one 10v cap in there)  and even though it tested as working when I took it out, the higher voltage cap seemed to work better.

Of course, I replaced the caps because the IC was burning up, which I think usually means hot is going to ground (as I would say it) - or you might say +9 and ground are connected. If you don't understand the phrase "hot is going to ground" let me know, because that would make total sense in audio wiring, but this is pedals.

Checking three times with printout - that is an impressive troubleshooting procedure, but I can see why it works. Good advice - thank you. I like the diagram idea a lot.

Knife the gaps - I always use a continuity test to make sure nothing is connected. I rarely have a soldering issue but it can happen. I don't like playing with knives, something about using my hands for other things. I get the idea of what you are saying though.

I do have and use use an audio probe - sometimes it helps and sometimes it gives me somewhat misleading or unhelpful indicator, though. Like a signal might die in one spot because something in a completely different area is messed up. I'm just saying I use them, but have had mixed success.

[motterpaul]

Thanks Beaker - It is always something when components go up in flames. I've seen caps pop and J201s fizzle. I've never had a fire.

What I don't know is how much heat an IC can take. I did replace it, but should I throw the old one away? It still seems to be working

[motterpaul]

Travis wrote

That was how I felt yesterday.

[Travis]

Eh it's just another one of your posts lol. I'm sure everybody here is used to it