Free amp for my birthday

[motterpaul]

I would not post this at TGP or any other place where too many people would try it - but I just bought a Bugera amp at Amazon (was so cheap I couldn't resist) but maybe not too surprisingly, it kind of sucks. You can dial in some good tones, but the speaker is very cheap.

But it was marked down about 15% from what even Sweetwater & others charge - and free shipping, so I bought it (it was my bday april 1, no fooling). Anyway - after I tried to dial it in for an hour I decided I was just going to return it.

Guess what? Amazon has a policy of not taking back any products that contain hazardous materials including "strong magnets" - so they told me they would refund my money and I can just keep the amp. Unbelievable. A brand new $400 amp for free.

I kind of feel like on Monday I will get a different email with a return label attached, but that is what they said today, so far so good.

[clockman]

Happy b-day to you paul. Great score. Which model Bugera did you choose? any cabinet out options you're going to explore?
I was/am interested in their 5watt tube amp. Love small amps for home recording.

[motterpaul]

I got the V22 VINTAGE Infinium combo. I guess vintage means the speaker breaks up like a Fender Champ - it truly sounded awful when I first turned it on - very nasally and hairy. But if you get the clean channel dialed in right and use overdrives it actually can sound decent.

I guess I misread the models because I thought the vintage version of the V22 came with 6V6, but I must have read that in an old review or something, because this one came with EL84s. I could have gotten the V55 which I see now was the same price (on Amazon) which has EL34s. But I also wanted a light grab & go combo.

The demos sounded decent enough. With a speaker change I think it will be a completely different amp. Too bad I just sold my best older speakers, tho I still have three or four Celestion G12-70 and 75s left.

It sounded much better plugged into my Greenback 2x12 Traynor cabinet - have you seen these with the slanted baffles so the speakers somewhat face each other? That is my regular gig rig cabinet.



Yeah, I would recommend just getting a head with Bugera if you want a cheap tube amp - but I wanted a grab & go amp.

[clockman]

I've never had my hands on a traynor before. I use a marshall 2x12 jcm lead series cab, replaced the stock speakers with Celestial V30's. Blackstar HT5 head on top. It uses an odd tube for powering it.

 years ago I was using an EL84 amp, Crate club 30. the drive channel was super compressed and it wasn't for me BUT the "A" channel was really good, only had a master volume and bass and treble( if memory serves me) crunched and chimed at the same time.. loudly.

 best of luck picking  a replacement speaker

[rocket88]

FYI, I have this amp, got it for a steal years ago for $150 brand new, knew a guy at guitar center and has some discounts. All I'm going to say is the speaker isn't bad, you need to break it in just like any other speaker, and seems to take a little longer then most speakers you get. Also, a tube replacement changes the tone of the amp tremendously. Tyne only let down on this amp is that like fenders the distortion channel sucks, but that can be changed if you know what to change.

[motterpaul]

Rocket - thanks for the advice. I also read other people saying the speaker needs to be broken in. It really is not that bad of an amp, I was just a little disappointed I could not push the output tubes a little harder (considering it is only 22 watts) but it does sound decent on the clean channel. You also get more bass when you use the normal channel (the bright channel seems brighter, but also has no low end at all).

I just didn't quite hear that tube tone I was hoping for - the overdrive was very broken up like a Champ amp on full. But I am pretty sure a lot of it is in the speaker.

Clockman - I also had a 1938 2x12 Marshall for years. I put the Greenback H speakers in it and it rocked. I love those speakers. What I like about the Traynor is the angled speakers, though, you can set it up and stand by it and one speaker is pointed at your head, not your feet.

[rocket88]

The bright channel switch is doing it's supposed to, cuts bass giving you a brighter sound, personally I think bright channels are a waste and just use the normal. The amp I similar to an old peavy that's a modded copy of an old fender, can't remember which one. The clean gets a touch of hair if set right, very bluesy. If you want more grit run a booster into it, you'll get some nice tube overdrive. I'm yelling you if you want to alter the tone start researching and swapping tubes, it will change the whole personality of the amp, especially when the speaker breaks in.

FYI, the wattage of the amp doesn't determine the amount of gain/hair you can get from an amp, that's determined by the values of the components in gain stage. I know that typically higher wattage amps stay cleaner longer, ie more headroom, but that's not always the case it's a little more complex than that. Speaker magnet and cone material, various component values, how hard you're hitting the preamp, etc. Most of the distortion characteristic of an amp are determined by the preamp, not the power tubes. The only way you're going to get power tube distortion is if you're running the MV at max, as the MV sets how much signal is going for the power tubes, this goes for any tube amp btw.

[IvIark]

What an awesome result!

[motterpaul]

Rocket, good buddy....

You may recall we were having this headroom discussion about a month ago, and I was saying exactly what you just said...

"FYI, the wattage of the amp doesn't determine the amount of gain/hair you can get from an amp, that's determined by the values of the components in gain stage. I know that typically higher wattage amps stay cleaner longer, ie more headroom, but that's not always the case it's a little more complex than that. Speaker magnet and cone material, various component values, how hard you're hitting the preamp, etc. Most of the distortion characteristic of an amp are determined by the preamp, not the power tubes. The only way you're going to get power tube distortion is if you're running the MV at max, as the MV sets how much signal is going for the power tubes, this goes for any tube amp btw."

But I went to an amp builders forum and opened this topic and one tech said "if you have a really low wattage amp, then it is easier to push the preamp harder and get the output tubes to the point where they also start to be affected. That is why people buy low wattage tube amps" - makes sense.

Then I recalled I used to have a cheap 30-watt "Spectra" amp that was very easy to overdrive the clean channel. So easy that a mere Brain May boost would make it so 1 note would round-robin feedback and sustain as long as I wanted it to. But of course, part of that is also the design of the pre-amp. The Bugera doesn't seem to do that (I hoped it would). My JCM800 will do it, but I have to turn it up to 11.

So I do plan to change tubes in the Bugera, what do you recommend? JJs are pretty good these days. I actually have some Mullard, Phillips and Amperex 12ax7s (but they are in my Marshall). I also have a pair of Bugle Boy EL84s I might try in this Bugera.

And I am also going to change speakers because it just isn't that hard to do. I am very picky about speaker tone and I just found a cool, rare Celestion 35-watt here locally for just $70 I am going to try.

[clockman]

Just wanted to suggest a fantastic book on the subject- The Tube Amp Handbook. Find it , read it,  love it.
The subject of "why the human ear craves distortion" and wasted watts may well have been worth the price.

[rocket88]

well i wasn't part of any discussion with you in the past few months. if you read what i wrote it's not saying the same thing you did, you alluded to the idea that because it's a low wattage amp that it should be able to get pushed harder easier, which is not correct. there are plenty of low wattage amps that remain clean even when pushed hard, and conversely there are many amps that are high wattage amps that are almost never clean. case in point the old orange OR120 (graphic citrus) and old matamp gt120, which is similar but has differences that make it its own beast, are both rarely clean, which is why they are used a lot in the doom/stoner metal scene. while the  Ibanez TSA15H is known for being a very clean amp that is only 15watts. you have a habit of over simplifying things, and they're not always black and white.

if you read what i wrote i'm pointing out the many things that add up to the overall characteristic of an amp and how/when it goes into distortion. something as simple as changing from a 12AX7 tube to a 12AU7 tube will result in less distortion. most new amps are master volume units, which give you a gain control that controls how much V2 of the preamp is hit, which will control how the power tubes are hit, and a master volume that controls how much the power tubes are hit. this controls the overall volume and distortion of the power tubes only.. in many older designs you'll find they are non-master volume units. in these amps the amount V2 is hit is predetermined, and you control how much the power tubes get hit, which thereby controls the overall gain and volume you get. this is because you are controlling volume and distortion of the power tubes one, giving you less overall control of the distortion and character of the amp. this is why in many older amps in order to get distortion you have to have the amp on blast.

you must also take into consideration what type of amp it is. IE: Class A, Class B, or Class AB will all react and behave differently due to their design. how many preamp tubes will affect the amount of gain as well. case in point the legendary adding of a 4th preamp tube to a JCM800 will result in more distortion and earlier distortion, but it remains a 100watt amp.

the tube amp book is a great book on tube amps. i've read many books that go into massive depth of how they're designed, and what everything does, because i've been at work on designing some amps and planning a few builds. not saying the techs said the wrong things, but not the whole picture. i have not given the whole picture either, but merely given more detail then before.

as for suggestions i offer none. you need to do research on the perceived tonal characteristics and breakup, and test yourself to find what you want and like. i can tell you that a speaker change is a waste of money when it's unnecessary if you're doing just to do it. you will also need to select a speaker that will work with the amp and its design. just throwing in a speaker because it's good with one amp does not mean it will be good in another. case in point, the old sunn cabinets used altec lansing speakers, and when people swapped them for others they cabinets didn't have the same life & character. this is due to not just the character & design of the amp, but also due to the design of the cabinets which is very unique. another example from my experience is when i was shopping for an amp and bought my mesa m6, when i tried the head with other cabinets the amp sounded no where near as good or as full of life as it did with the mesa cab. it's the same thing when swapping pickups, just cause a set sounds good in one guitar doesn't mean they will sound good in any guitar or bass.

[motterpaul]

Normally I would let this slide, but I just want to say that I find your demeaning tone offensive;  "impulsive" - "waste of money" - and especially implying that I don't understand the most basic aspects of cabinet & speaker design. Wrong.

You say you have no suggestions, and after I spent hours reading about classes of amps I believe you, you truly have no helpful suggestions. All I learned is that class means nothing when it comes to what kind of tone to expect. Cathode bias, feedback loop, crossover distortion, plate dissipation, even order harmonics...  to quote:

"Class AB operation is obtained by biasing to a point in between class B and class A. For a portion of both half cycles of the input sine wave, both tubes are conducting current in opposition as in class A, but one tube hits cutoff before the other tube hits saturation.   The other tube's current keeps increasing up to a maximum, and back down to the "changeover" point, which is above the zero current point.  The maximum output power is less than in class B, but more than in class A.  The distortion is less than in class B, but more than in class A.   Most push-pull guitar amps run in this class of operation." 

That is the essence of the concept for about 95% of all amps sold, right? I understand it, but how does that help me select a low wattage amp? You say you plan to design tube amps - going to reinvent the wheel?

Now, there are things we mortals can do.  I have been switching Output Tubes for years; bought my first Weber Bias-Rite 10 years ago, and as for swapping speakers - just because you struck out for your Mesa it doesn't mean others can't do it.

I have owned and tried V30s, EVM12L, G12-65s, G12-70s, G12-75s, G12/T75s (look them up), G12-80, G12-100s, Gold Alnicos, Greenback M and Greenback H, G12-Heritage, JBL D120s,  Eminence Red Coats, and more in 1x12 and 2x12 open and closed back, parallel and series, 4x12 series/parallel, and in open and closed baffle combos. I have pretty much run the gamut of guitar speaker and cabinet combinations. I could give a rundown of how much I like each one if it would really help someone.  My knowledge comes from my experience and my ears - not just books.  

Below is a video shootout of the speaker I just bought (close enough) and the stock Bugera in the bespoke amp. The V30 does sound WAY better in that amp. Sometimes selecting different components for a given design does work. Isn't that how you justify selling close copies of well-known pedals?

Sadly,  I have never heard or seen one of your pedal demos, but I will be waiting for that tube amp you are designing. Someday you should you play either bass or guitar on a video or audio, so we have an idea of your taste in music and tone. Now there is some useful advice.


Suggested reading/watching for you:  

http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/technical-q-a

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfJ5KI_11CQ (shootout V22 speaker vs. V30)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ0CAr3chjE&feature=youtu.be - me playing guitar on video. Try it!

[rocket88]

My tone was not demeaning unless you take it that way paul.

Designing an amp does not mean reinventing the wheel and creating something completely new. By taking an existing design and changing values and components is designing. No different then what's been done for years.

Straight up, if you think the speaker sounds better more power to you. I know, since I own the same model amp for a lot longer then you, 3-4yrs I know how it sounds when it's broken in. If spending money on a new speaker because you feel it sounds better more power to you, I could care less, giving my opinion based on more experience that it's a waste of money at this point when the amp is brand new and not broken in. Therefore I feel it is a waste of money. No different when someone buys a guitar or bass and immediately changes pickups because the stock ones "suck," but you've spent little to no time getting to know them and use them. You should get to know the equipment and live with it for a bit before changing things.

The class of the amp will have an effect on the tone as how everything works together and has an effect on the overall tone, as the component placement is different. The component values will also have a major affect on the tone. The speaker will affect the frequencies you hear, some are more mid rangey, some more bassy, some more trebley. The cone material, magnet size and strength, everything has an effect on tone and should match the amp character. Going back to the concept of changing pickups, in a dark sounding instrument typically you would want pickups that will brighten your tone a bit, and would not choose the same pickups for a bright sounding instrument.

I have no idea why you bring up my pedals and sound tests, it has nothing to do with this discussion and your amp search and your tone. If you're looking for an amp you should play through through it, hear it, and desire for yourself. My mesa is nothing close to a strike out. The amp and cabinet are designed to work together, and the speakers are designed to work with the amp correctly, which is why the amp and cabinet sound as good as they do together. Again, by playing with the amp and testing it with different cabinets I was able to choose what was the best tone as I hear it.

My taste in music and style of playing has nothing to do with the price of tea in china and irrelevant to the discussion. And as far as my taste in tone  goes, I'm pretty sure I've got fairly good ears for tone since I have customers that run the gamete from those that have been in the music industry since the 60's to students are julliard and people that build instruments for big name bands like the Rolling Stones. I don't have to prove a damn thing to you. Flat out your problem is you don't like being told you are wrong in your thought process and that you don't know as much as you think you do.

As you have I have experience with different speaker and different amps and cabinet styles. I am telling you what is fact on how an amp and speaker should be selected. Just throwing a speaker that's "good" into a cabinet doesn't make it better if the amp doesn't see it as optimal. This is the same thing as replacing one cap material for another, the tone will be unaffected if the values are the same.

My book knowledge is based on electrical engineering texts and amp design books by electrical engineers that have designed amps, not just things online. It makes a difference then simply reading things online.

It's this attitude you have that is the reason I rarely respond to things you say, and questions you ask. I've stated before to you in private and public I will not be pulled down this hole with and by you and you've pulled me into this enough. I've given you my opinion and facts, and that's all it is, take it or leave it, I don't care, but once again I'm done with this interaction. It does nothing but bring down the community.

You want to change the speaker cause you got a $170 speaker for $70, wonderful. My opinion based on my longer experience with the amp is it's a waste of money. It's like the old saying, a fool with his money will soon be parted. Good luck in your tone search.