Newbie questions and doubts.

[JaviCAP]

First thing I'd like to tell, is that this topic is my personal view of things, and no way it shows or is related to the administrators of the site point of view. So it's just MY opinion.

Let's start:

When you build your first pedal(s), doesn't matter if on vero or pcb, you need a previous approach. On first builds, that use to be easy ones, like Fuzz Faces, SHO's or even Distortion + and similars, for a first time builder, the offboard wiring will get a ten times more difficult job than the board itself.

So, if you really want to build your effect and have the slightest pride or confidence on your abilities, and want to avoid to act as a perfect fool (we all have been newbies, but newbie is not sinonym of fool), take this in mind:

- In a pedal, besides the board (including components), you'll have to deal with what has been called "offboard wiring":

1. Input and output jacks
2. Dc jack and/or battery clip
3. Stompswitch.
4. Pots
5. Led

as a basis, you can deal too with toggle and rotary switches, optocuplers, trafos, and many other things, but let's stick to the basic ones.

For these tasks, you have two options:

1. Study and understand what is and how it works what you're using: a stereo jack, a mono jack, a dc jack and a battery clip, a led, how pots are numbered, how a stompswitch is placed and numbered. You need an electronics base too to understand the circuit, the voltages, the grounds, and so on.

2. Just copy eveything from a verified picture / web. You'll understand what are you doing after some builds.

I chose the second option (as I usually do with all things in life). I had no fucking idea about what was a "tip, ring or sleeve" in a jack, how the hell a 3Pdt switch did work or even which was the behaviour expected. Of course, no idea about +9v or negative ground. Even, i didn't even fuckin know that a led has + and - orientation and that they needed a limiting resistor in order not to burn them when engaged, how a pot is numbered... and so on.

But, I built my first pedal, a fuzz face on tagboard, and had not to ask anything to anyone. All the information I did need, was, (and still is) on the net. So, if you have some pride for yourself, and really want to, you are able to build your first pedal, as a newbie, not as a fool.

Call me an asshole, bitter tempered or grumpy buffon, but everytime I see a comment as "How the stompswitch is wired", "how do I put a led", "how the pot lungs are numbered" and similar ones I get upset.

Dudes, you have all the basic information on the net, there are TONS of newbie guides, forums, reports, pictures, how to's There's no need to address questions starting  with a "I'm a noob builder  and want to know what's these red squares that appear on your layouts".

I have no problem in helping anyone with more advanced issues in their builds, even if it's about a SHO that has a low output, but I'd love to be able to kick arses trough the net everytime I see questions like pots numbering?, is this true bypass?, "my build works great when bypassed, but get no sound when I activate the effect"

Recently sent a guy  to hell. He toldd me that he had a non working Distortion + build

I asked him to tell me the ic voltages:

He answered that if it could be that the diodes were dodgy. -> No, the diodes are not in the signal path, if they're broken, they won't clip, but you'll get sound at the output. Please, measure the voltages.

-> And how I measure the voltages? -> Put your dmm in DC mode 20v, put the black probe in a ground point and the red in the pin of the IC you want to measure.

-> And what is DC, how i set my dmm to DC? -----> Wel mate, I'm here to try to help you, not to teach you things that you should know if dealing with pedals buildind. Read, study, learn how to use a fuckin dmm, and after this, when you know which your voltages are, tell me about it.

So, please, it's always easier to ask and wait for someone to solve your problems, than looking fo info by yourself. But this will point too, if you're a newbie or an asshole noob.

J.

[Frank_NH]

I can relate Javi.  I work in a technical field where I do customer support for complex engineering software, and I encounter the "noobies" every day (though most folks have no trouble with the software, and have interesting, legitimate engineering questions).  Sometimes I say (politely):  RTFM!

As for pedal building, I only recently (last year or so) got into it heavily, and before that was more into guitar building.  In the guitar building hobby, there is a lot of the same thing:  How to I use hide glue?  How do I carve the braces?  How do I carve the neck?  How do I fret the neck?  How do I set bridge relative to the  body/next?  And on and on.  I ultimately learned by DOING.  That is, I made my own jigs, experimented with scrap wood, and figured out on my own the best way for me to accomplish the various tasks.

And so it is with pedal building.  I learned (and am still learning) about the circuits themselves (how jfets and op amps work, how low/high pass filters are made with resistors and capacitors, etc.) and also developed a construction and debugging process that has worked for me (though I still have a couple of circuits that have some problems and I've put those aside for now).  Here (in no particular order) are pieces of advice I would give to noobies:

(1) Learn how to solder!  That doesn't just mean applying solder with a soldering iron, but also how to make sure leads and wires are aligned and mechanically secured BEFORE applying solder.  I hate to see wires that are misaligned and barely connected by a blob of solder (yuck).

(2) Learn everything about your DVM (or whatever multimeter you use).  And get a good one.  The most used function is the continuity function.  Probably 50% of my bugs are related to continuity (or lack thereof).  I spend a good bit of time prepping my vero board, and checking the the track cuts.  I can't emphasize this enough.  The next most used function is voltage measurement, followed by component value measurement (resistors, capacitors, diode forward voltage, transistor hfe).

(3) Make and use an audio probe.  You can track down a multitude of problems with one.  Basically it's a wire connected to a jack (which is then connected to your amp) which allows you "listen" to various parts of the audio path.  You can add a cap on the front of the probe to filter out DC but that's not entirely necessary.  I use this all the time to find breaks in the audio path (no sound), which are ultimately the result of cold solder joints (see item (1) above...).

(4) Make and use a circuit testing platform/rig.  The platform allows you hook up a fresh vero circuit to 9V, ground, input (from guitar), and output (to amp).  Mine uses alligator clips to quickly hook to the wires on my board.  You can rock out all day with this before committing a build to a laboriously prepared enclosure.  I also use mine to facilitate the use of my audio probe.  Here's a nice design from Beavis Audio Research:

Test Rig

(5) Finally, start small!  This is VERY important.  I know that some noobies want to jump right into that 4 IC, high parts count phaser-overdrive-tremolo-octave circuit, but resist that temptation and start small - perhaps a 1 transistor booster or a 2 transistor fuzz.  You get a lot more enjoyment from a working simple circuit than a non-working complex one!

But most of all, have fun and don't give up if the vero circuit doesn't work the first time.  

(Oh...and please noobies - don't complain that a verified circuit layout is "all wrong" and "doesn't work" before doing at least a little debugging on your own...)

[IvIark]

Great info guys.  This is probably going to be the "go to thread" that I link certain questions to in future, so all good tips are gratefully received!

[Vince]

The best piece of advice (for what it's worth) I can give is, when you're about to stab yourself in the face with your soldering iron out of complete frustration, turn everything off and go back to it later. So many times I've sat staring at something wishing it to work and you get blinded.. come back with a fresh pair of eyes and sometimes it jumps out at you.... then you want to stab yourself in the face again for being such an idiot....

[JaviCAP]

Frank_NH wrote

(Oh...and please noobies - don't complain that a verified circuit layout is "all wrong" and "doesn't work" before doing at least a little debugging on your own...)

Oooooooooo yeah! The sentence tha makes me wanna slap some cheeks, especially if the guy that verified the layout it's me :P.

I still remeber on the original Klon topic, an asshole that said that the Gain pot was reversed, and that it was posible that, even verified, he could be the first one to notice it :P I asked that if he truly believed that thounsands of builders were wrong and he was the only right, but got no answer :(

J.

[rocket88]

can't agree more javi. i know that as i've gotten better, and gained more experience these things drive me nuts. i know i've been guilty of it at the beginning, but people need to learn to at least use the tools first, especially a DMM. i mean if you don't know how to use that really you shouldn't be building anything. i mean the first the first thing you should always check is the voltages on the transistors, or IC, i find that when i have issues there's usually something messing that up, and if i didn't know how to check the voltages i wouldn't be able to fix it.

offboard wiring can be a bitch, especially if its your first one. so i mean i can kinda understand all the questions about it, but i agree with you.

the funny thing is there's one pedal i can't get to work, that i've built 2 times from different verified layouts, i know it's something i did, so i don't blame the layout. but still AHHHHH.

my favorite is when people say something like "i built __________ and it doesn't work, how do i fix it?" or "i built __________ and i get this weird noise, how do i fix it?"

my first thought is SLAP!

[inefficiency]

I was thinking about making a similar thread on just tips and tricks. Things like using snipped component legs as jumpers or Marks tip about sticking a bit of vero to the pins on a pot to give you something to solder to.

Basic stuff, but stuff that would really help with making a build easier or a little sturdier. Stuff that isn't too apparent when you first start out.

A bit of a different idea, but helpful all the same.

Good work Javi! Very useful.

[Silver Blues]

Yeah man I feel you as well. If you don't have the basic knowledge necessary to do something don't. I don't think I can say anything that hasn't been said already, but

1. Learn to solder PROPERLY! Many newbies have no idea how to do this right and then get problems from poor solder joints. It makes me physically cringe seeing someone's build log and their joints look like absolute shit. Also, get as good of an iron as you can afford. I'm using a million-year-old Weller WP35 that I'm convinced is the best iron on the face of the earth and all time. It's had the same tip for like twenty years and has never needed to be replaced or any part of it repaired. Read: the tip of my soldering iron is older than me. Quality is not optional and need not be expensive.

2. Learn to use all of your DMM. All of it. Even the parts that aren't commonly used in pedal building (like the ammeter for example) will come in handy someday if you ever decide to branch out. At the very least learn how and when/where to use the ohmmeter, DC voltmeter, continuity tester, diode tester, transistor tester, and (if you have it) capacitance meter. Solves so many problems.

3. Take some care when building. I'm a bit overly meticulous; I actually solder in each component individually, unlike some of you who do all resistors or caps in one go, and I test every joint with my ohmmeter to make sure it's good. You don't have to do that, but make sure your cuts are clean, arrange your components properly, observe your joint to make sure it at least looks right, watch for solder bridges AS you solder as well as after, clean between the tracks when you're done. Ensure things that shouldn't be touching aren't. Being proactive is so much easier than being reactive.

4. Learn conventions. It stands to reason that if you can't read the layout you can't build fuck all. If you can't recognize cuts, links (single and double), resistors, capacitors (especially which end is which on polar ones!), ICs (especially their correct orientation), transistors, offboard wiring points/pot numbering and diodes, and/or can't immediately tell the value of the component you're looking at, you should drop everything and learn this. Too many "what's the red square" or "what is that brown thing that says 68p" kind of questions. Not to be rude but this is kind of prerequisite knowledge.

5. Kind of ties into the last one, but be willing to learn, particularly about advanced concepts. I STILL learn all kinds of things reading this forum despite the fact that I've been working with electronics at about this level since the sixth grade. People with more advanced knowledge are here to help, so listen to those trying to help you. That being said, repeated questions about things you should know already aren't appreciated. It's at your fingertips.

6. Consider that the problem might be you if your circuit isn't working but should be. If forty people have verified and are happily strumming/crunching/chugging/phasing/compressing/filtering away on the pedal and yours doesn't work then it probably isn't an issue with the layout.

Despite the ranting, we're all really nice people so don't be afraid to get building

[Heath]

I have 2 things to add, if I may:

1. I think all of us more experienced builders (I hesitated, at first, to add that "us" as I feel like a dumbass half of the time, but then I have built about 60 working pedals from here, so I guess I qualify, if nominally) have an obligation by virtue of being part of a community (as opposed to just people copying layouts off of a webpage) to practice patience, as much as we can manage, with newer members.  

I'm absolutely aware of how frustrating it is to hear the same basic questions asked a hundred times when that info is available all over and even on this very site.  Just please remember that this is VERY confusing for a beginner and it can be overwhelming.  Being overwhelmed can often act as a stumbling block to looking things up effectively, and as frustrating as it might be to hear those repetitious questions, the frustration of a newbie who just isn't making that connection between A and B can be just as intense.

I don't know what I would have done if not for the generous and patient nature of the posters here.  I like to think I took some initiative in figuring basics out, but I'm still thick as a brick on some things.  I'm a work in progress.  I really don't understand a lot of the stuff I put together and I'm often lost as hell when trying to trouble-shoot... but I can solder like a motherfucker now and have managed, on several occasions, to make my own mods which sometimes even worked! :p  

I don't want to come off as a hypocrite, because I can be a raging bastard online when provoked.  I've had many Facebook posts removed from the Tayda page regarding coupon beggars where I lost my temper.  But this place has been around for a few years with so many different personalities and it has remained, with a couple of minor controlled hiccups, amazingly drama/mean-bastard/blow-up free.  That's actually very unusual and I'm grateful for that.  

So, yeah, deep breaths, counting to 10, etc :)  Let's remain an oasis in an otherwise shit-soaked internet. :)


2. This is to the newbs.  If a layout has less than 10 comments, even if verified, maybe go to something else.  SO MANY questions are answered in the comments.  READ THEM.  READ THEM ALL.  My biggest mistakes have been made when I had the layout in front of my, but not the page.  There is/are advice, gotchas, mods, suggestions, and pitfalls galore listed.

PLEASE READ, BEGINNERS:  Sometimes the official schematic's values simply do not work in reality.  I don't know why.  It seems illogical, but there you go.  This isn't Mark's Modified Layouts, so most of the time he will post the layout with the specified layout values.  He will sometimes make recommendations with regards to hard to get parts, or fix an obvious error, but as far as "This works better for this pedal," those will usually be in the comments.  You have some VERY experienced builders making those comments, so listen to them.  READ THE COMMENTS.  

I just can't state that emphasize that enough.

[rocket88]

just to add to what heath  said. i it doesn't work WALK AWAY. i can't tell you how many times somethings doesn't work right, and when i try to struggle with it right then and there i just get so frustrated that i miss something completely stupid, like forgetting to put in an IC or transistor, or putting them in backwards/upside down.
because of that i have a method for debugging.
1 - check that the IC or transistor is inserted correctly.
2 - run a knife in between ALL the tracks to make sure there's no solder bridges.
3 - check cuts, jumpers, and wiring wiring.
4 - check voltages of IC or transistors.
5 - check for misplaced components and values.
6 - throw pedal up against a wall to show dominance.
7 - sit in fetal position crying because a stupid little electronic device i made beat me.

[IvIark]

Sometimes you really do just need a break from it to get your brain back in gear.  I do it all the time with layouts where I get to a point where I've boxed myself in and one required connection seems impossible to do.  But every time that has happened, I've always sorted out the problem easily in a couple of minutes the next day after a good nights sleep, and wondered what all the fuss was about.  Sometimes you really can't see the wood for the trees, and a break from it is all you need.

Same with builds.  If something doesn't work and you're starting to feel frustrated, then leave it and go and do something else for a while.  These things are much easier to fix when you're thinking clearly.  

[Beaker]

Have to agree to everything that has been said here, positive as well as negative.

Heath's comments are particulary true - one of the things that REALLY set this community apart from just about every other I have ever visited, is the almost total lack of bad mouthing and flaming that goes on. That is something that we should be proud of, and I would not like to see that helpful attitude to each other change.

All newbies are going to ask a daft question sooner or later, so yes maybe steer them to gently to a rescources page, as well as the build guide and the offboard wiring page?

Hell it's not just newbies though. I'm in the the running for "most idiotic comment of the year" award, and only Vince (bless him) bothered to chide me for my stupidity.

My advice to all newbies is:

 #1. To learn as much as you can, from as many sources as you can, at a level that matches your understanding and abilities. And yes, do some research first BEFORE asking really obvious questions e.g. how to wire a pot or switch.

#2. If it won't work - WALK AWAY!. Leave it for a day or two before you try to debug it. Obvious faults jump out at you with a fresh pair of eyes. This has already been mentioned, so believe it - pros suffer from "Solder Blindness" just as much as beginners.

#3. Practice. Unless you have a background in electronics, your builds will look like rats nests, and may not work at all. How much time, effort, blood, frustration, and hair tearing did you expend learning to play guitar? Building pedals is exactly the same - you need to practice.

[rocket88]

can not agree more beaker. just to add about the wiring looking like a rats nest, the more you build the better you get at making it look neater. i mean i look at some of my early builds and i just want to rip the wiring out and do it again because its just a mess. i think one think that helped was looking at what those in the community do, as well as using thin 22-24AWG stranded wire. its thin, so i can easily hid it and get it through tight places, but i can also bend it how i want it and it hold its position, and doesn't break like solid core would do (at least to me it would happen constantly, get a wire in bend it and it would break at the solder joint).

i also can't agree more about the lack of attitude, arguing, and bickering here. everyone hear is truly helpful and willing to do what they can. sometimes i know we poke at each other, but never anything like what happens on some forums, pedal building or not.

beaker, you got called out on a comment?? i don't remember that. how bad was it?

[Beaker]

Tiny Giant amp. Read the comments.

[rocket88]

haha, i just saw it. but truth be told its not voltage you got to worry about, it's the amperage. you have easily get electrocuted by something that's low voltage, but high amperage, so you're comment isn't that daft.

i'm pretty sure somewhere there's a comment i made that's really stupid, i think it was something about cap values and i referring to the value as _____K rather than nF, uF or pf.

[Beaker]

Oh yes, 12 Volts from a car battery really hurts by the time it reaches the starter motor!

In truth, my daft comment followed reading the stuff on the link about not cutting the lead before the transformer, followed by no sleep for 36 hours.

Still embarrassing though...

[dbat69]

Some very good, useful and pertinent comments here.
Heath, I agree with you that something may look so obvious to an experienced builder, but to a novice it can be a minefield.  However, as said many times, before asking - read. Read the guides people have apinstakingly put together and the comments that follow, most answers will be there. Research a bit, even Wikipedia has some useful info  but Google is the hero.

Something else to add.  Get some decent tools, a pair of side cutters (small modeling ones are great), some utility knives,

I use a "stripboard track cutter" from Bitsbox £3.28 (its just a drill bit in a nice plastic handle)
http://www.bitsbox.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=243_271&products_id=1853

A nice pair of bent long nose pliers I've found come in very useful from time to time (especially for those hard to get to places when inserting / removing components after a build)

Being an old fart, I've found a "hands free magnifier" useful - the one I got has a big magnifier and a light
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hands-Free-Magnifier-Helping-Hand-Magnifying-Glass-Adjustable-Magnifier-Lamp-/360687900013?pt=UK_Jewellery_Watches_JewelleryBoxes_Supplies_CA&hash=item53faac956d

Also I can not live without my 40x Jewelers Loupe - its great for checking for solder bridges and cuts, also for reading the text on small components
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40X-25mm-POWER-JEWELER-LOUPE-LED-LOOP-MAGNIFIER-MAGNIFING-GLASS-LIGHTED-TK-/331291938698?pt=UK_Jewellery_Watches_JewelleryBoxes_Supplies_CA&hash=item4d2289cf8a

[Heath]

Holy shit, how have I lived this long without a jewelers loupe!??!?

Yesterday I was desperately trying to read the text on a transistor and failing miserably ("2... 2n5... 4?  oh, fuck it, it's probably a 2n5457..  I'll find out when I try to use it..")

Yes, I've been doing the Sherlock Holmes thing with my magnifying glass, but it's not doing the job helping me read that tiny bastard print.  

I'm not even old, dammit! :p

Damn kids...

[Heath]

Illuminated too?!?!?!?  Oh, 21st Century, will thy wonders never cease?


Just snagged this one off ebay, dirt cheap

Can't wait till it gets here.  I'm going to jewel-loupe the shit out of some unidentified transistors.

[dbat69]

Heath wrote

I'm not even old, dammit! :p

Damn kids...

Heath, you allways crack me up

It was the best bit of kit I got


I've also found these little breadboards great for testing out different values of pots - if you use the PCB type with pins (from Tayda) they just stick into one end - and the other can be wired - easy peasy
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/7pcs-25-Points-Mini-Breadboard-Prototype-Board-Shield-for-Arduino-DIY-DT-/171410358851?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item27e8da8243 

Edit:  Heath - how do you do the hyper link with text - so much tidier than the full http://.......... crap I've posted ?