Pedal Builders

[fenderguy79]

Hi All,
I was just wondering who on this forum are either building pedals either as a business or selling to support the hobby?  Do you have any advice for someone looking to do the same?  
Thanks,
Will

[Frank_NH]

I'm not doing either, but there are others who are.  My advice (for what it's worth) would be to let your guitar playing friends try them out.  If they like them and you think they are good enough quality to sell, try selling them to your friends (for near cost), then try selling online (e.g. eBay).  Before going to eBay, make sure you're prepared to support your product and deal with complaints, non-functioning units, etc.  Finally, if you plan to make this a business (e.g. selling more than $500 worth of product), be aware of the tax laws applicable to the business.  You will need to get some professional advice/assistance for that, but best to set up your business the right way at the start.

Good luck.  

[Surgeon]

I've sold about 15 just to support my hobby. However, I've found out that about 1/10 buyers is a total asshole who won't be happy no matter what and will expect you to build him loads of free shit, customize other pedals andd reimburse him, all because a perfectly fonctionning clone isn't to his liking or working well with the other 25 pedals on his board. (True story, even reimbursing the dude 100% well beyind a reasonable time frame didn't satisfy him and it ended pretty ugly...)
I've come to the conclusion that dwaling with "this guy" is totally not worth it (even if they only come once or twice every 10 or 20 sales) and now only sell my pedals to people I know and with which there's mutual trust and respect.

I say do this for fun unless you really have time and money to invest... Management rule #1: 20% of people will monopolize 80% of your time and energy...

[JaviCAP]

If the pedal I'm asked to build, is on stock, I offer 7 days to return it, no questions if the pedal is 100% as it was sold. A week after, I'll support any malfunction without limit. No problem.

But if i get ordered a pedal that I  have to build from scratch: "If you order it, you keep it" i don't give a fuck if you like, don't like, doesn't work ok with your gear, or whatever reason you can have. I always show this direction when someone I don't know orders a unit.

J.

[Surgeon]

Believe me, I have the exact same policy as you but this guy was a royal pita on every aspect. He kept emailing me for a month after the purchase of his custom pedal (not in stock and not something standard either) for every little thing and kept telling me I must've messed something up, to which I always said "just bring it back and I'll refund uour money" so the guy would be ok, I would stop having to reply page-long emails explaining how pedals work and I could get that idiot out of my life. Still he never wanted to bring it back. Then, 3 months later angry emails started 'cause something "real" was happening (his words were "real problem this time"). I just flat-out told him that the only course of action was to bring it back and I'd refund him 100% (which I wouldn't have done in any other circumstance bu I really wanted to be done with this asswipe). Of course that was unacceptable to him 'cause he really loved the pedal (really? why the fuck have I been spending an hour every noght for a month defending my work and teaching you about electronics?) The he demanded that i give him a few orher pedals in replacement... And of course the insults started. I ended-up after another month telling him that if his next email didn't contain a date and time for him to meet me to bring the pedal back I'd keep his money and just block his email' which i did since he only replied with more threats and insults...

This sums it up but there really is a lot more to it sadly.

I've had nothing but positive experiences sellin my pedals, including dealing with claims and warranty work (mainly broken 3pdts) but this guy just sucked the fun out of it.. I have a family, a high-stress/responsibility job, I don't need that kinda crap in my life.

[rocket88]

JaviCAP wrote

If the pedal I'm asked to build, is on stock, I offer 7 days to return it, no questions if the pedal is 100% as it was sold. A week after, I'll support any malfunction without limit. No problem.

But if i get ordered a pedal that I  have to build from scratch: "If you order it, you keep it" i don't give a fuck if you like, don't like, doesn't work ok with your gear, or whatever reason you can have. I always show this direction when someone I don't know orders a unit.

J.

i've recently started building to sell, and i'm the same way as javi. i build to order, but if it's just stock stuff, ie: a standard russian green muff, fuzzface, etc. i accept returns in 2 weeks, figuring that gives someone more then enough time to get used to it and mess with it, and offer a lifetime warranty on the effect against defects in my building, shit if a tranny dies i can replace it easy and they're cheap. if someone want's a specific pedal built to their specs, if they don't like it then tough shit, it was built for you how you want it, if you don't end up liking it too bad. i've done one revision for someone because they felt it the fuzz was a little too wooly, they wanted for bass then tried it on guitar and bitched it let too much low end it and was wooly so i swapped the a few caps and said this is it like it or hate it. my attitude is that as long as it's not abused there's no reason i couldn't fix it, as the cost to repair really isn't high, and as long as they pay for shipping back to me its a couple of bucks out of my pocket and maybe an hours worth of work.

for me it's come from building basses and guitars for people. i've never had a return on them, but one guy gave me hell. he chose this horrible pink/purple metallic color that he HAD to have, i warned him that once i painted it and assembled it i would not do it again or take it back, since it was a custom color for him. he approved of the color, begged for it, i sent it to him, then he wanted to return it. i literally told him to kiss my ass, i told him i would not take it back once it was done. you want to talk about a pain in the ass, he tried to sue me, but since i had everything in writing via emails that it was not returnable, he lost and ended up having to pay me more money for what went on.

i think the important thing is be careful of who you deal with, get everything in writing and make your warranty clear, and think of what you want your company to be. if your goals are to be the next fooltone or wampler, then you have a lot to think about, if you want to be a small boutique builder you'll need to think about how you're going to reach people. for me i want to keep things small, and build to order. also, think about how you're going get people interested in you. for me, it's word of mouth. i've built for a few famous musicians that i meet and just BSed with and they asked if i could make something for them, as well as friends and other local musicians, but now i'm looking to branch out using things like facebook and have a webpage.

one other thing. don't get caught in a situation like the guy that made the oracle fuzz. he took tons of orders, and never filled them. started to get sued, and disappeared. honestly, if you're looking to do this for a living, i would suggest against it. if you're going to do it on the side, or to support your building that's fine, but i would avoid the profession route, just my 2cents.

[Frank_NH]

Thanks Surgeon and Zach for your stories.  Now I KNOW I don't want to sell my pedals...

Actually, your experiences are consistent with my observation of local musicians.  That is, of the local people who play regularly in my area, about 90% are fine, talented folks with day jobs.  Then there are the other 10% who have drinking, drug, marital or financial problems,  On the surface they are genial and easy to work with, but if they were to ask me to build a guitar or pedal, I would kindly decline.  They live hand to mouth and have dreams of making big in music.  Selling anything to them is a roll of the dice.

You can go on other forums, such as the luthier ones, and read similar stories of the "custom build from hell".  Personally, if someone wanted my work, I'd sell them a completed build, cash deal.  If you don't like it after six months, too bad...

[Chris60601]

All really great advice. I on the other hand, plan on winning the lottery and sinking a crap load of money in to Smallbear or some other entity that will pull in a return for my investment

... Then of course, I woke up from my dream

In time though, I might go the route as Rocket is. But for now, it's only close friends to help me put more parts in my hands.

Cheers
Chris

[rocket88]

Look, I mean shit happens and there are a lot of assholes that are on music and think they're awesome and like they know what they're talking about with gear and they don't. You have to pick and choose sometimes who you do work for and don't be afraid to turn them away.

I built a bass for my little brother, who goes to Juliard and some of the people he knows in his classes want me to do shit for them and I won't. When you're small it's all ok you, not like a big company, so you have to be smart about everything. I see nothing wrong with selling, but once you start to have orders from stores and have to keep effects in stock you can easily get over your head. Plus, I love doing this, if I ended up doing it all the time I don't think I would enjoy it anymore and it became my job.

[JaviCAP]

Sure, there are very few assholes, but once you find one.... it's hard to forget.

I was ordered a King of Tone with customized finish by one "known" player here in Spain. He lives in Barcelona, and told me that they were going to record in Madrid on next week, and that he would need to have the pedal for the recording sessions. The studio is close to my home, so no problem, I built the pedal and went to the studio to hand him the effect.

Exactly 14 days after, he messaged me, telling that he wanted to return the pedal because "It sounds killer, but it's difficult to insert the input jack, it's a very tight fit and  you have to push very hard. And it's been still not 15 days since purchased" (In Spain, in regular purchases you have 15 days to return the goods)

I was shocked, and told him that if he had a problem with the pedal while he was in Madrid, why  had to wait 14 days to tell me about it, after finishing the recording and returning to Barcelona.

He answered that he was "very busy" and that he wanted his money back. I told him that I would pay the send and return of the pedal by courier and swap the input jack, so he could have the pedal fully working in 72 hours, free of charge. He said "No, I just want my money back"

So I had to remind him that customized goods built from scratch to meet buyer's specs, cannot be returned as regular standard items, and that the input jack is a mechanical component, so is not covered by guarantee. After legal terms, told him "If you want a King of Tone for recording, you always have the option to hire it, but if you think that you're going to fool me, you've got the wrong dude. So, you can sue me if you want, but I'm not going to refund you, and now, I won't fix the jack neither"

He answered that he was a known guitar player, that he had many friends and that refusing to refund him, would get me to lose "hundreds" of clients. I answered "I don't need clients like you. Enjoy your KOT" :P

Few assholes but ince you find one.......

J.

[Surgeon]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, lots of nice folks out there of course. But personally, I can't deal with that small proportion of entitled/takeadvantageofyou out there. I'll build for almost cost for friends and people I respect and my work always is covered for life too. However, the trouble buyers out there just take too much of my time and energy for me to want to bother. I make a great living doing what I do and I can easily support my building habits with that. I found it fun to be able to recoup my money by selling a few pedals every few months but it's not worth MY time (could be worth yours and you may be lucky and never encounter one of "those" guys).

Still, even if I was strapped for cash, I'd much rather build less than have to put up with that kind of conflict and stress. Even if you know your situation is bulletproof, being threatened to be taken to court over a 150$ custom build (hey, I'm even cheaper than the big builders 'cause I pay myself about 1$/hour) is far from being fun...

[rocket88]

javi and surgeon, you hit the nail on the head, as far as how i feel. luckily i've had really good luck, and just that one asshole with the pink/purple bass. i like to think that the luthier carl thompson had the right idea. if you wanted him to build something you had to meet him some how and he had to approve of you. in this day in age, i think with things like skype you can get to talk to the customer and get an idea of the person/player they are and decide if you want work with them, and if you do then get the order in writing via email. i've been thinking about doing it that way as i "expand," when really i just want to avoid the assholes, and people that seem like they would give me trouble.

i don't know how vic deals with all this now, since he is fairly well known now, and has his effects in stores/online, as well as gieri, so they might have some really great insight on how to stop the issues some of us have had in the past.

[Synsound]

I sell on a very small scale. My practices may not be feasible for all, but for me it works. I don't do mail order sales at all. I insist that the buyer tries it out at the time of purchase. I don't know if it is global but I'm sure there are other sites like Craigslist to buy sell and trade. I occasionally post stuff on there and have had good luck. I have had folks say that it was not necessary to demo it but I will not be bothered by jackassery so my rule is play before you buy. I also just keep Facebook updated with build pics which generate interest for me.
That is as hard as I will push as I don't need a 2nd job. This is my fun.

When asked to build to order I require enough money down to cover parts and shipping(even if it is in stock).
If they just don't like it I keep the down payment. Usually $20-$25.
If I have never built one before they are told up front that there are no guarantees.
As long as I have built it successfully in the past I let them know that I will refund the $ down if I can't produce a working pedal in the agreed time.
I try not to build for others what I have not built for myself. (And liked enough to keep)

No great wisdom. Just how I have done things thus far.

[fenderguy79]

Lots of great insight here guys.
I've sold an em drive clone to a friend, and several utility pedals on kijiji, but nothing crazy yet. Right now I think just selling to people I know will be the right route.

[JaviCAP]

Just one more advise:

If someone tells you something like "I want a Tonebender MKII with OC81D NOS transistors, philips electro caps, carbon comp resistors and mullard tropical fish np caps and routed with cloth wire, because I konw that these are the right components and the only way to get the tone", send him to hell as soon as he finishes the speech: this kind of client brings lots of problems.

They're the kind of "TGP" phreaks that can't tell a Fuzz Face from the moo of a cow, they just look at the guts and polish the enclosure, but will try to find the slightest blemish or non good looking solder, to tell you that the pedal is not working ok.

J.

[cylens]

haha, so true...

[rocket88]

JaviCAP wrote

Just one more advise:

If someone asks you for something like "I want a Tonebender MKII with OC81D NOS transistors, philips electro caps and mullars tropical fish np caps and routed with cloth wire, because I konw that these are the right components and the only way to get the tone", send him to hell as soon as he finishes: this kind of clients bring lots of problems.

They're the kind of "TGP" phreaks that can't tell between a Fuzz Face and the bark of a dog, they just look at the guts and polish the enclosure, but will try to find the slightest blemish or non good looking solder, to tell you that the pedal is not working ok.

J.

HaHa, can't agree more. I once had a guy ask me if I had. List of components like that for a build that he wanted, I told him that I had everything on my list, and no he can't have it and I wouldn't build it for him. I just had to mess with him, cause I really did have all the parts he wanted, but I wouldn't use them on s d-bag like him, cause they're mine for a special builld. Lol

But one more thing, make sure people know it's all by hand, so perfection does not exist. That means in the soldering, wiring, graphics. As long as it looks professional you won't have s problem, but I tell people that they may have a scratch or nick in the finish, hell it could have my fingerprint in it since I paint all my enclosures with spraypaint.  

[Surgeon]

Truer words have never been written anywhere else ever Javi...

Also, I know in the english-speaking parts of the world it's not the same but if you're like me and the language isn't english (french here for example) but the guy uses the word "tone" 3 or more times per sentence: sent him to hell just as well. Tone is only a word in english , not french (the word "tonalité" does however) so overuse of it only, IMHO, denotes the exact same kind of "spends too mich time in the internet instead of playing guitar readin tgp and overanalysing on paper instead of with gear/ears" jackass who willl spend 3 months arguing about you about things that don't exist or apply to the pedal you built him... As you can see, it's been over a year and I'm still angry at that motherfucker.

[Frank_NH]

What?  Are you telling me those $25 NOS JRC4558 Op Amps I just bought on eBay don't have any MOJO???  

There's a thread on DIYStompboxes where the OP asks what makes a guitar pedal sound good (talk about a loaded question!).  It's a great thread and if you're a member there you can find it under new posts.  My response was that it takes a good ** player ** to make a pedal sound good.  I suppose that a lot of us guitar players have a gear fetish which is built on the notion that if we just had Brian May's guitar, pedals, and amps (like 10 AC-30s!) we would sound just like him.  Sadly, I've discovered that I still sound like me regardless of the guitar/gear I'm playing.  Of course, pedals do allow us to unlock musical creativity if they possess a certain tone that speaks to us.  I tend towards the classic rock end of the spectrum and hence like crunchy, Marshall-style overdrives and distortions.  But I also like U2, prog rock, and yes some country, so delay, reverb, and compression come into play there.

So what does this have to do with selling pedals?  I would require people interested in my work to test drive it and see if it works for them and their rig.  I shouldn't matter if it has NOS germanium transistors or parts sourced from Radio Shack.  The MOJO is in your fingers...

[rocket88]

 You mean if I use a a Ge fuzzface that has NOS NKT275's, I wont sound like Hendrix??? I don't know what to do now.....my world is turned upside down, I mean black is white and white is black....the sky is green and grass is blue...... Everything about tone I thought I knew is a lie!!!! The boutique companies lied to me. Now I'm going to sell all my parts, it's not worth building anymore.

But seriously, I think it's ok to be after a specific tone, but the issue is when people ask things like "will this make me sound like jimmy page, Jimi hendrix, Clapton, townshed, etc?" That's when I send them away when they mention tone. But, if they try to describe a certain sound they ar working towards I will direct them towards something to get an idea of what they really want. But I NEVER take on work form someone that says they want to sound like another musician, they will give you nothing but problems.