Rangemaster or Tone Bender?

[Sensei Tim]

which would you build?

i have a bunch of pnp trannies that i need to use!

[PMowdes]

Have you tried the spaceman Saturn V??? Not that it helps you use the PNPs

[Sensei Tim]

no, i've only tried the gemini III. didn't really do it for me, though.

[GrooveChampion]

Both in one pedal, call it the Zeppelin Queen.

[Travis]

The answer is both and which bender?!

[Sensei Tim]

you tell me!  i don't know what the differences are between the various tonebenders. i know there are some TB connoisseurs on here and i will deffer to their opinions...

[Travis]

What kinds of transistors do you have?

The MKI can range quite a bit from primal squishy buzzy to more open and crunchy. The difference is sorta in the gain and gating. It is so difficult to get that one right I don’t really recommend it. There is usually either an annoying sizzly crackle or excessive gating, very few people have actually done it correctly IMO.

The MK1.5 is similar to a Fuzz Face, without the wooly low end. It is probably the easiest to build version, though the transistor type is very important for the overall sound. Spend some time trying different transistor types and you will be rewarded

The MKII is sortof in the same ballpark as the 1.5, but it can go from light crunchy sounds to syrupy gooey sustainy sounds. A bit more sustain and saturation maybe

The MKIII and MKIV share the same topology and they come with a tone control. The tone control ranges from probably somewhat excessively thin to probably excessively bassy. The MKIII has less sustain and sortof a more choppy, buzzy sound. The MKIV has more sustain and sounds more similar to a high gain amp or Big Muff compared to the earlier MKIII

The later versions are mostly Big Muff based

The transistor selection for all versions can range quite a bit, so depending on what you’ve got, that may determine which one you should build first

[Sensei Tim]

i have a bunch of GT402v russian pnp's  and  just got a lot of MP40 / AC128 / OC76 transistors. haven't had a chance to measure them yet tho.

I'd be using it primarily with a tele.

[tracer03]

Sub'd. I have a box of 1T308V arriving in the next couple of days and was going to ask this very question.

[Travis]

Tim I think you aughta be able to do any of them except probably the pesky MKI but try all of them if you have the time

Since I have some idea of what type of pedals you like, I have a feeling that the MKIV would be your favorite but I could be wrong.

Tracer you could do the MK1.5 and probably a pretty decent MKII. Since any of these circuits are easy to breadboard I really encourage you to breadboard them and try out all the transistors you want. Try whichever circuits you want regardless of what I suggest.

A couple tips for building Tone Benders.. try not to get too caught up in “following the rules” with hfe and leakage. It can be helpful to use other builders’ suggestions as a starting point, but you are never confined to a set of numbers. It is helpful to keep track of measurements so that when you find your sound, it is easier to replicate. You can also use the measurements to get a feel for how higher or lower hfe or leakage might affect the sound as you try different parts.

Try to accumulate a variety of transistors to audition. Not just different part numbers, but different brands and countries of manufacture.

Last but not least try to hone in on the sound before adding any mods including a charge pump as any change could possibly cause some weird problem that might have you chasing your tail with mods and even transistor selection

The main thing is that I am not really an expert but you can make yourself the expert of your parts stash by breadboarding whichever circuit you’d like with whatever transistors you’ve got. If you find that you don’t have anything that’s working, feel free to ask here and we’ll help. You’re going to want to have a few different good types with some leakage and a few with low leakage.

[tracer03]

Travis wrote

Tracer you could do the MK1.5 and probably a pretty decent MKII. Since any of these circuits are easy to breadboard I really encourage you to breadboard them and try out all the transistors you want. Try whichever circuits you want regardless of what I suggest.

Thanks for the info - definitely looking at the MkII, but I'm a bit confused: which one is the Mk1.5?

Also - would the Park Fuzz Sound Three Knobbie be a good build candidate? (Park Fuzz Sound - Unverified Layouts)

[PMowdes]

Sensei Tim wrote

no, i've only tried the gemini III. didn't really do it for me, though.

Dino described the Saturn

"like a refined Rangemaster, with muscle. It just makes everything pop out of a dull amp"

I have some boards if your interested :)

[Travis]

The MK1.5 is the same as a Fuzz Face but 47K resistor instead of 33K, 5uf input cap, and 100K volume pot

That Park Fuzz Sound is exactly the same as a normal MKIV except for the 470K output resistor which you will probably want to change or omit anyways

[Sensei Tim]

Thanks for your input Travis.

I’m trying to step outside of my normal tastes with this build. I recently picked up a tele and I’m exploring some of those really raw dirty tones. Not the usual high Gain stuff.

[Sensei Tim]

Let me look into the Saturn some more.

Is there a bom somewhere?

[PMowdes]

Sensei Tim wrote

Let me look into the Saturn some more.

Is there a bom somewhere?

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=118812.msg1107797#msg1107797

[Travis]

Sensei Tim wrote

Thanks for your input Travis.

I’m trying to step outside of my normal tastes with this build. I recently picked up a tele and I’m exploring some of those really raw dirty tones. Not the usual high Gain stuff.

Yeah I think you will like the 3 knobber. Yardbirds Heart Full of Soul is Tele and 3 knob Bender

[BetterOffShred]

I really like the rangemaster with an input cap rotary.  It drives tube amps really sweet and with a couple bigger caps to deal with its far from shrill.  I'd also recommend the D*A*M red rooster if you have a high gain NPN like a AC176.. It sounds amazing.

[Travis]

Yeah I agree Brett the input cap blend or switch takes it to the next level. The Rangemaster itself tends to distort more as more bass is introduced by the larger input cap which is also pretty cool.

Here’s a layout I uploaded a long time ago for a PNP Rangemaster with input cap blend and onboard charge pump. I drew it to fit my own caps and 1/2W resistors, it could be made smaller otherwise

[tracer03]

So my goodie bag came today, and after letting them warm up to room temp I threw them on the Atlas:
out of 25, only 3 had measurable leakage.
hfe: 61, lkg: .45mA
hfe: 74, lkg: .06 mA
hfe: 80, lkg: .23 mA.

The others had a nice spread of gains, and the Atlas showed 0.00 leakage:
65
67
68
70
71 x2
72 x2
75 x3
77
80
81 x3
82 x2
86
87
93(!)
95 (!!)

So my options just got a bit more varied, I think...