modding guitar effect to be used with microphones

[Tune Tone]

So far I read a lot about previous questions of users on the forums concerning this topic. Still I have a few questions and want to know more precisely - what needs to be done in a guitar effect built for guitar such as the layouts in this website - in order for it to work properly with a microphone signal. Im talking input and output wise, so there won't be any damage to the circuit cause of impedance difference on the input of the effects circuit, and what kind of circuit needs to be added to the effects output for it to have a proper balanced signal attached to an xlr connector ?
also important / can all of this be as an addition to the normal 1/4" jack connection in case of using the effect for guitar, maybe toggle switch between guitar / mic mode ?
did I phrase it correctly ?

once and for all I would understand this topic, would be really glad to implement that idea in maybe all the guitar effects I'm building so it's for a good cause!

thanks for your help

[Muadzin]

Tune Tone wrote

So far I read a lot about previous questions of users on the forums concerning this topic. Still I have a few questions and want to know more precisely - what needs to be done in a guitar effect built for guitar such as the layouts in this website - in order for it to work properly with a microphone signal. Im talking input and output wise, so there won't be any damage to the circuit cause of impedance difference on the input of the effects circuit, and what kind of circuit needs to be added to the effects output for it to have a proper balanced signal attached to an xlr connector ?
also important / can all of this be as an addition to the normal 1/4" jack connection in case of using the effect for guitar, maybe toggle switch between guitar / mic mode ?
did I phrase it correctly ?

once and for all I would understand this topic, would be really glad to implement that idea in maybe all the guitar effects I'm building so it's for a good cause!

thanks for your help

Most vocalists I've seen who use guitar pedals on their vocals just use an unbalanced XLR to mono jack cable into the input and a jack/jack mono cable from the output into a DI box to convert the signal into balanced. And this seems to work perfectly fine.

Now you could get really fancy by building something that has both balanced inputs and balanced outputs, but consider this: The normal procedure for a gig is that the venue supplies an XLR cable with a mike for the vocals. You want something else, just plug it into the XLR cable. With DI boxes optional at the end of that XLR cable on request. Which means that as far as vocalists are concerned you need to bring the vocal effects, a cable from the mike to the effects and possibly a jack/jack cable to plug into the DI Box. Now if you're going to add your own balanced out circuit to the effect you can eliminate the need for a DI box and jack/jack cable, as you can plug the venue's XLR cable straight into your effect. But you will always need that extra cable to connect the mike to the effect. Since the venue will expect you to bring your own unless requested why make things more difficult for yourself by adding a complicated balanced input to your effect when there are shitloads of XLR to jack cables to be had and vocalists are running vocal effects that way since like forever?

As for the balanced output circuit I recommend the balanced output driver from THCustom.
http://diy.thcustom.com/shop/balanced-line-driver-v1-0/

It needs a wonky expensive chip, but he sells them too. Other then that super easy to make and run. It doesn't require phantom power, or 18 volts, as almost all the circuits I've seen here. So you can run it from the same 9 volts as the effect. The less complications, the better. A ground lift switch is easy to make, a simple SPDT switch, ground from the balanced output board to the center lug, and from one of the two outer lugs to the XLR connector.  

[Tune Tone]

So I guess what I really need to do is just build an additional circuit (the direct box) for the effects to have a proper balanced signal on the xlr output.
For the input side of things maybe a an xlr to 1/4 jack converter is really enough.

any more ideas or different perspectives ?
again - Im talking about efficient ideas but not too overrated. I dont want to demage to the circuit or electronics but eventuelle a long term use with a balanced leveling (no peaking and distortion).

cheers

[Muadzin]

Well, the balanced output boards usually have an input gain trimpot on them to prevent clipping. So what are you planning to use it for?

Personally I wouldn't mind having a dedicated dirt box for vocals, together with a noise gate to prevent feedback. Because there are lots of times when you don't sing and putting dirt on vocals does tend to increase the chance of feedback, especially when you're not singing. Best to cut it off when not in use. Also pitch shift. Methinks it would be awesome to use a whammy on your vocals when you're singing.

[Beaker]

I have no other suggestions. Muadzin is absolutely correct on every point. I would have said exactly the same thing had I replied first.

[Tune Tone]

I built a reverb from a kit of TH Custom effects that a friend would like to use for vocals if it would be set for it.
to have this knowledge as a tool wouldn't harm.. let's put it out like that :)

[Muadzin]

I'm going to go technical here. The thing with putting effects on vocals in general is that they tend to increase the risk of feedback. That's usually why vocal effects are added at the front of house mixing desk and not at the feet of the singer. In a good PA system there are two separate systems going on, Front of House (FOH), which does the mixing and amplification for the audience, and the monitor mixing, which only handles the sound that comes out of the monitor boxes for the band so they can hear each other on stage. Both get the same input from the musicians, but usually only the FOH mixer adds effects like reverb or delays. The monitor mix is usually dry as a bone in that regard. As it should be because musicians on stage don't need to hear an awesome sounding live mix, they need to hear themselves and each other. Unfortunately many musicians don't seem to realize this and think that what they hear on stage is the same as what the audience hears. As a result the monitor mixer has the most demanding job, where the FOH mixer only has to create one mix for the audience, the monitor mixer has to create a separate mix for each band member. And to make it worse he usually also has to 'interrogate' each band member what they need to hear. And hopefully getting a better answer then 'everything?'.

Usually guitar and bass players have their own amps on stage and tend to linger in front of them so they don't need to hear themselves that much on their monitor speaker. And as we all know guitarists in particular are assholes when it comes to their amp volumes anyway. Drummers also tend to have this loud instrument in front of them producing volume. But vocalists have no amps behind them. The only way they can hear themselves on stage is from the monitor speaker in front of them. They also have the problem that they need to hear themselves reasonably well in order to sing in tune. A guitar player who can't hear himself can still play on, knowing that as long as he uses the right frets and strings and hits the correct stompbox he will still play his part correctly. A singer who can't hear himself will sing out of tune. Badly. Henceforth this means the monitor mix for the singer is usually always the one that is the loudest. Unfortunately there's a limit to the amount of volume you can put out through a monitor speaker and not have it start to feedback on the singer's microphone above it. This is usually made worse by poor microphone handling technique by vocalists. To counter this in a good monitor mixing system it will have a series of graphic equalizers set to eliminate offending frequencies and especially the mids section will look like a graphic chart of a stock market after a major crash. Lots of mids cut, which will not help to make the vocals sound pleasing. This is why I personally think ALL vocalists should use in-ears. You will not have feedback problems, you will hear what you are singing and best of all, it will even sound better as it will not be subject to the equalizers taking out most of the mids,

To get back to being relevant, in my experience having done monitor mixing for years is that reverbs tend to add to certain frequencies that make them prone to feedback on very loud monitor speakers. Or even FOH systems if set too loud. Frequencies that sound engineers prefer to cut rather then boost. I've known sound engineers who have flatly refused the request of vocalists to use effects pedals on their vocals. That is to say, when they are at the vocalist's feet. If however you give them to the FOH engineer to be used on the vocals they can usually squeeze in an Aux send/return to accommodate you. You won't then hear it on the monitors, only the audience will hear it. But then again monitors are not for getting an awesome live mix anyway. Of course this will remove control of the reverb from the singer. But then again, the reverb processors that are in the effects rack of the average FOH mixer tends to be superior to most DIY reverbs anyway so I see little point in using reverb pedals on vocals. Unless you're using a very extreme setting.

Now I'm no longer that sure what point I am trying to make. Maybe that you shouldn't worry that much about how you can connect pedals on vocals. It's not really that important in the grand scheme. As long as there is a DI box it can always be plugged in via a jack/jack cable. How those pedals will impact your live sound on stage however, this will probably be a far bigger problem. Try it out a few times, to see if it causes any feedback problems. And only then if it works out start modifying the pedal to add balanced output.

[motterpaul]

Here is my answer: $20.00

But personally I would buy an effects unit made for vocal mics and not try to do this. Even those "proper" vocal effects units are frowned upon by soundmen.

[vid.sicious]

I'll apologise in advance because I've not read any comments in this topic so I'm writing based purely on the title (lazy mafucka).
Plenty of vocalists use guitar pedals for effects with a DI in front to turn the balanced XLR signal into Line (or Instrument Level). You can do that by getting  DI or just build a mic preamp that will do it to you:
http://www.paulinthelab.com/2012/04/balenced-to-line-microphone-preamp.html?m=1
Good luck! (No idea if it's verified but just putting it out there. We totally sh have more these kinds of circuits on this site!)