A few definitions _ Overdrive, Boost, Fuzz, Distortion

[motterpaul]

Okay I thought I was clear on the difference between all of these, but I think it might help to talk about it:

Boost - generally just a volume boost - but the same basic tone. Some add treble, because that also gives you perceived loudness ("treble boost" is a common term used with "boost')

Fuzz - generally that highly distorted sound with very little attack and a grittier style of sustain. Fuzz to me (fuzz-face) is "Satisfaction" or "pictures of matchstick men". I hear very little headroom in fuzz and almost no attack on the notes - because the initial voltage get clipped. Fuzz comes from germanium diodes, etc.

Overdrive - generally, that "Marshall in box" sound. Basically, a pedal that imitates to tube sections of high gain amps with 12ax7s - usually by using JFets. This is actually the tone I am seeking here among all these circuits. I built the Wampler Plexi with trimmers and wow - perfect for me.

Distortion - this is where I am getting confused. What is the definition of "distortion?" Is it supposed to be like fuzz, or more like overdrive?

I am looking for more of the "Plexi in a box" types of sounds - I play classic rock, PRS/humbucker, Tom Petty, Bad Co, etc.

This week I built the LovePedal+Purple+Plexi (based on an LM386) and to me this is not a Plexi sound at all. The gain is huge, but scratchy and there is very little headroom. To me, this is more of a fuzz than an overdrive. Yesterday I did the Oddfellow Effects Caveman Drive, because the demo sounded great.  A letdown for me. After I did some research I found out it is basically an OCD4 (which we all know was not popular). I could only get the original caveman "motorboating" (2n7000s) - so I changed the few varied resistor values from it to what the OCD4 has, and it worked, loud & gainy, but too compressed.

I have also built the McGillwell FET booster, not impressed.

What I like so far:

Wampler Plexi with trimmers (Best yet)
Keeley Katana (Takes awhile to get working but worth the effort)
BMP Tone stack with LPB1 - this is genius to me - it work so well with other pedals it is almost worth adding to any circuit.

I have built four or five more. I have only boxed two if them (one a Mockman from another site) and the Wample Plexi. The Katana will get boxed with the BMP but it still needs a little more love.

I am just putting this out there to seek like-minded people. I am seeking smooth driving sustain, so I can hold a note "forever" - but not too gritty. I need to hear the attack on every note - fuzz is not my thing. If the pedal pulls out the octave harmonic on the sustain all the better; this is always a great effect.

I have gotten this with some FET circuits (J201s), but I would like to find a dual op-amp circuit that does does the same trick (just because I feel they are more stable and predictable). Anyone have any ideas for me - possibly just directions on where to start looking?

Let me start by asking what people play (music style and choice of gear) and what some of their favorite builds have been - and what sound they feel they achieved with their favorite circuits

(and please know I understand the people here did not design these circuits, they come from commercial pedals, so there is nothing personal intended here).

[Silver Blues]

Well, let me start by telling you how I see it.

Boost - a transparent volume increase, or sometimes with treble or bass added, as you say. Used mostly to shove the front ends of tube amps into natural breakup or give more gain to other pedals. Typically simple circuits without any form of induced clipping (cascaded gain stages, diodes, etc.) Example, EHX LPB.

Overdrive - Low-to-medium gain combined with intentional clipping. Can be construed as seeking to emulate the tone of amplifiers under overdriven conditions, as you say. Some are simple (Electra), some are moderately complex (Tube Screamer, which is actually typically used to push amp fronts contrary to it's description), some are no-holds-barred emulations or solid-state verbatim of amplifier preamps (Catalinbread's things, much of RoG's stuff, Marvel Drive, I could go on).

Two types of fuzz. You have your sustaining fuzz, which is extremely high gain but smooth sounding and designed to give you huge, saturated tone. Classic example is the Big Muff. There's also the kinds of fuzzes that are more gated and/or dirty sounding, supposed to sound like the way they used to do fuzz (slashing loudspeaker cones). Examples could include Tone Benders, Fuzz Faces I guess, Devi Ever's stuff, etc.

Distortion is really just high-gain OD. Certain amps just have really hot gain stages, like Soldanos, Bogner, Peavey, Mesa... the "modern metal" kind of tones. This is "distortion".

This, however, is not really accurate, because there is so much overlap between these arbitrary categories. Pedal categories are like porn, you don't know how to describe it but you know it when you hear it. Like what's a "Fuzz Drive"? You can only say that a pedal fits a category by listening to it. Although, we do tend to have prime examples of what is what.

I've heard Plexi emulators being categorized as both ODs and distortions. Something like the Ramble Drive, for example, kind of fits more in the OD category, while the DLS III (or the Keeley Stahlhammer) or something like it I'd put it in distortion.  

motterpaul wrote

I am just putting this out there to seek like-minded people. I am seeking smooth driving sustain, so I can hold a note "forever" - but not too gritty. I need to hear the attack on every note - fuzz is not my thing. If the pedal pulls out the octave harmonic on the sustain all the better; this is always a great effect.

That sounds like a Muff to me. There are ways to tune the circuit to get less wooly attack if that's what you're after, or just turn the tone a little to the treble side for some bite. But huge, "forever" sustain is characteristic of a Muff.

I'm just trying to think of an emulator-style pedal that would be more like what you're looking for, if I think of one I'll come back.

That wasn't clear at all

[motterpaul]

On the contrary - that was a great answer. You pegged the one word I was trying to think of "wooly." (I do write for a living) - Wooly is what happens when overdrive gets too thick. When I play a chord I want it to sound big and full, but I also want a fairly consistent waveform - not something that sounds like its going through a blender.

Distortion is probably something you hear with Steve Vai or those other "shredders" who need tons of gain to do all the tapping and Harmonics they use. That sound is cool - but honestly I am not a good enough player to make it worthwhile using because I can't control it the way they do.

Pick attack is extremely important to me - can't stand a fuzz that sounds more like a synth than a guitar. I get it - if the player wants the Clapton "woman" tone with the neck pickup with its treble all rolled off. That is what some of these fuzzes sound like to me. But I use my bridge pickup with volume and tone on full at least 90% of the time, and that is the sound I want for my pedals (I use humbucker guitars, mostly).

I normally get my gain by overdriving tube amps - but that is just one sound - pedals give you many options. But a good tube amp (I think) is more consistent in tone throughout the range of the guitar than all but a few pedals. Pedals can tend to be one-trick ponies as well (but you get a variety of them).

I listened to the demo of the DLS - was not impressed. I built the SHO and felt it needed a little Levitra (not clear on recall if I had all the right parts).

I have to go back to the Wampler Plexi with Trimmers - my favorite build so far by far. I hope some more people weigh in here.

[dbat69]

Silver, I think you have summed up really well.

If I were to add one thing to help MP, I would suggest that "volume" helps immensely in achieving what you are after - it is very hard to replicate at low volumes.

I've found the Marshall Guv'nor to be a decent pedal in giving that bite and overdrive/distortion.  But, its best when pushing a valve amp.  Another pedal I have which gives a degree of bite with the overdrive, although not the everlasting sustain you're after, is a Tokai Metal Driver (I'm not sure what it is based on).

As Silver said, the sustain etc sound you're after does sound like a Muff into a valve amp, perhaps with a booster and the amp up loud erm, to 11   (darn, the headbanging smiley is not available in the list)

Oh and I'm into good ol' rock too.

[motterpaul]

Thanks Dbat...

When I think of overdrive pedals I naturally envision a 12ax7 pre-amp on the verge of breakup - Like a 2204 or Suhr. I guess there are a lot of Fender users out there, but I have a Fender Twin with JBL D-120s and I can't think of a worse amp for overdrive pedals. It just sounds all nasal and  honky. Amazing clean tone, though.

I once ran an MXR Dist+ through a 60s bassman, though, and it did sound identical to my Marshall 50-watt (a 2205 at the time). Yeah, I know that is what Marshalls were based upon.

Some people also seem to equate that "shredded speaker" sound with gainy overdrive, but I don't. When I hear a speaker trying to jump out of its voice coil I just think "nope, that's not the tone, that's just abusing a speaker."

To me the tone is in the pre-amp and if the EL34s add some hair that is cool, as long as it is a good sound. I prefer heavy gain 12ax7 pre-amps with the headroom of 6L6GCs.  So, to me an overdrive pedal should emulate a great pre-amp (Plexi, JCM800, Bogner). Anything else is an 'effect" to me - not a real staple pedal to create a signature tone.

And yes, I do try my pedals at decent volume. Right now 30 watts all tube amp with 12ax7s and 6L6GCs. I also try to take them out to use on my EVH51510 or Marshall DSL100.

Joe Bonnamasa gets a great tone out of Les Pauls and Marshalls - and of course he is famous for using a fuzz face (EDIT - OR IS IT A MUFF?). So, I hear what you guys are saying about them. I have never heard him getting a "fuzz" sound, so he does have the right one and he knows how to use it. The only decent "fuzz" sound I have heard in modern times is Slash on "Sweet Child of Mine". In concert he tries to use the same tone and it just gets lost in the mix - no attack. It is like he needs to be playing solo for it to be heard.

I will look into them. Other pedals I have had good luck with are Tims. One I don't like is the FullTone Mosfet. The one I have (red anniversary model) just didn't do anything for me.

dBat - how do you use your overdrive pedals? In front of a single channel? I know some guys here are using them on their gain channels on Marshalls, even ENGL, which is fine if that is what you are looking for.

Ironically (and I didn't really know this until a couple years ago) many boutique amps are one channel tube amps - so essentially made for drive pedals. I am talking about Fuchs, Dr Z, Swart, - most things you see here: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/forumdisplay.php?f=95

I will also look into Tokai and all recommendations.

[Silver Blues]

Haha well thanks. Yes I echo the statement about volume, large output helps the tone you're looking for.

Have you seen the RoG Thor? It sounds pretty good IMO and isn't an overly complex circuit either.

EDIT One high-gainer I've heard that I certainly liked (but I'm not sure is available DIY) is the Bogner Ecstasy Red.  Not sure what you'd think of that.

[motterpaul]

No, I haven't seen the Thor, but will check it out.

[motterpaul]

THOR sounds really great, I am going to build it.  I don't know what guitar they used in the demo but I like the tone.

[Silver Blues]

Yeah I agree, I was just looking through their website on a hunch and found it again and thought "that would be really good for him".

[motterpaul]

Got it all done except the tranny's which I need to wait for (2n5457s) I might try J201s and see how it works. I have some 2n5458s on order which I got a good price on - coming from Tayda as I recall.
1 5457 is about $6 now. I have one.

[Silver Blues]

That was quick.

$6?  

Hope it works for you, seems like a fun circuit.

[rocket88]

where did you find 2n5457's for $6 for 1? even though tayda is currently out of stock they're $0.65 each, and smallbear has them for $0.50 each. so to get 1 for $6.00 is more then highway robbery.

[dbat69]

Here is a link for 5457s, its just over $6 for 20

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20PCS-2N5457-2N5457G-TO-92-JFET-N-Channel-Transistor-/171350416350?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e547dbde

[motterpaul]

I should have been more clear. I have a bunch on order for about $.50 apiece right now, but I had seen them going for as much as $6 apiece on eBay, etc. when I was doing research before. Here is one now going for $17: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/371096597246?lpid=82 (Edit: opps, sorry, quantity 10)

But HERE is one for $7.65:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/400770682701?lpid=82

But many are also priced at $1.75,

The one I have I got from smallbear a while back as part of a kit so it was not individually priced. I did not pay $6 for one.  

I also asked here about 2n5458s - whether they are the same or similar - never got an answer. I saw them for sale and when I looked up the product sheet it said "replacement for 2n5457". On the Jfet comparison chart they look very similar, just a slightly higher forward voltage.

[motterpaul]

It weird, because I do recall when I was looking before I they seemed harder to find - as you said Tayda was sold out. I got some from MTLec, but I was limited to 50. I also got some from Small Bear and I think I paid about $.65 apiece.

Hmmm - I think I was getting them confused with the 2n2584 - which are a lot harder to find these days, which I needed last week.

One for $12.99: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2N5484-25V-10mA-N-Channel-RF-Transistor-JFET-TO-92-Qty-4-/371097267809?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56671eee61 (but not all are that much).

I apologize for the confusion - still new to me.

[motterpaul]

I have heard a lot of good about Bogner Red pedals.
Speaking of Bogner - anyone tried the new Bogner pedals with the Neve transformers?
http://www.bogneramplification.com/products/bogner-pedals-amps

Seems like a bit of hype to me, although Neve is a genius his focus was always on mics and "high fidelity" - not overdrives - although if anyone could design a transformer for a pedal from scratch he is certainly one of them. But then again, I think the people at Heyboer and Mercury know a little about transformers, too.

I don't hear anyone raving about them, though.

[motterpaul]

Below is the Nagy SupaNova I just built. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9U-_j9-SUw&feature=youtu.be  - Let' see if YouTube worked. Thanks.

[Frank_NH]

Nice demo, Paul!  The Super Nova sounds great through your Les Paul.  Definitely a high gainer.  I'll put that one on my list for sure.  

[motterpaul]

Thanks - yeah. It is a really clean but powerful circuit - I wish my camera could reflect that volume difference, but you get the idea and hear the tone. When you turn it on full you go from a quiet amp to a tone that heard throughout the entire house. The mid RC circuit could be tuned for more range and depth, and the bass switch does not do much (I need to look into that) but it still sounded so good anyway I wanted to show it. Only a few people have built it but all have raved about it.

[rocket88]

Definitely sounds good. It's been on my build list for awhile, it might have to get bumped up a few...... Sounds good to me in the video.