Newbie question

[knight_yyz]

I am a bit confused about something, so maybe a few of you can tell me...

I'm new to playing guitar, and have recently ordered my first few pedals.  But being a DIY type of person, I thought I would save a few bucks and try to make at least one pedal.  SO i have picked out that pedal and found the VERO diagram for it.  Now from what I have seen 95% of store bought/boutique stompboxes have an LED.  Yet not a single drawing or diagram I have seen includes an LED.  In fact I'm pretty sure the schematic i picked can;t have an LED unless i changed the stomp switch at least.  

Why are most of these diagrams not putting an LED in the circuit to show the box is on? 

[IMG]http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp90/knight_yyz/ZVex%20Mastotron.png[/IMG]


I'd like an LED in this circuit, but from what I have read, I will need a 4th set of poles to make this work, or redesign the circuit.  I have found drawings that show and LED on a DPDT switch, but none of them have caps across the lugs. Looks like almost all LED circuits require 3PDT switches.

[Chris60601]

Look at the off board wiring that's on the site

[knight_yyz]

There is no LED in that either.  


There are no LED's on any stomp boxes using DPDT switches,  yet they are used quite a lot.  Why not just show the 3dpt switch and an LED.

From what I have seen so far, if the Vero layout calls for a dpdt  there won't be an LED.  

[knight_yyz]

Ok, the off board circuit shows an LED, but a different switch.    I still don't understand why.   If the effect comes with an LED why not put it in the clone?  

[Chris60601]

I think its a given that most all folks will either know already how and what to do, and those that don't, ate pointed to the off board for ideas on how to do that. Of course, there can be several ways to do this, but the off board seems to work form most folks that wish to add it.
In short, the off-board (to me at least) is the easiest way to do that and can be done with any clone

[rocket88]

With a dpdt switch the only way you can have an led is by using what's cause a mellenium bypass. If you want to do it the way we all do and any "true bypass" effect you're going to need a 3pdt switch.

[Chris60601]

In fact, most Vero sites I been to don't show the led hookup. Users are pointed to view the sites off-board wiring section. As you build more of these, it will become clear that sites that offer off-board schemes, will be the given standard to be used for that site.

[knight_yyz]

Well,  that doesn't make sense.  Here's the diagram, with the wrong switch...  If you want the right switch, we redid the off board stuff way over here so put the two together.  Why not make it simple.  It would save you guys spoon feeding the noobs...


Sorry but it's annoying when you look at a diagram order all the bits and pieces and then you find out it really isn't a 'working" schematic because the other half of the circuit is on another page, and if you use the other half of the circuit the parts you just ordered are garbage.

Why not just show the diagram properly,  or do you guys all hate LED's?

[Travis]

The offboard wiring has the correct switch.

Drawing the switch and offboard wiring in every single diagram is redundant, because you almost always want to use true bypass with an led. For that reason there is the offboard wiring page, which shows the correct way to do it (including an LED).

If you follow both pages your pedal will work. If not we'll try and help you, but it would also help to not be rude. After all it's not like you paid for any of the information here. Someone is in fact paying for you to be able to see it

[Beaker]

Hi Knight and welcome.

In the real (mass manufactured) pedal world, there are many ways to turn a pedal on and off. They include hard switching - the usual switches already mentioned, buffered switching, relay switching and CMOS switching.

They all need cetrain switches to accomplish this, and that switch will be different (in tems of how many poles it has), if an LED on/off indicator is used.

Sometimes, though not often, the indicator LED is included in the pcb as part of the circuit, and if so, often that is reflected on the layout published here.

The schematics arrive here from different sources - manufacturers published ones, others culled from all over the internet, some are contributed by members here, and many are reverse-engineered from the guys over on the diy pedal forums (some of whom are members here too). We rely massively on the goodwill, hard work and above all generosity,of many people who do this for us, for free.

Aside from all that, some people don't put LEDs on their pedals for a whole host of reasons.



"Well,  that doesn't make sense.  Here's the diagram, with the wrong switch...  If you want the right switch, we redid the off board stuff way over here so put the two together.  Why not make it simple.  It would save you guys spoon feeding the noobs..."

With respect to you, no-one here will ever "spoon feed a noob", and getting arsey 'cos were not playing by your rules won't win you any friends here. I suggest that you do what every single one of us has had to do when we were the noobs.

RESEARCH IT YOUSELF

Use Google - read up on bypass methods, how they work, their pros and cons. There is tons of info out there that will help you to understand this.

Then if you ask how or why... we can, and will help you out as much as we can. We ALL rely on each other for help, regardless of age, education or experience.

Finally, the parts you ordered are not garbage, they are perfectly useable components that will deifinately find a use sooner or later.

[knight_yyz]

So from the drawing I am looking at, if I remove the dptd from the circuit and replace it with the 3dpt, do I still put the two caps on the 3dpt?

[Travis]

The DPDT is not a stomp switch. It is a 3 position toggle switch. You need on/off/on. It says it right below the switch on the layout.

The bypass switch is separate, and that is shown in the offboard wiring page

[tabbycat]

as for offboard wiring, gaussmarkov is the one i've got used to using. mark's one here is just as good in 2d but i find the step by step 3d graphics make it really simple to see what's going on in real life. and the arrangement of the wires is easier for me to remember on the gaussmarkov as the bypass path is pretty much a straight line left to right.



full step by step instructions in 3d here. thoroughly recommend you visit if you find other offboard wiring diagrams tricky.

http://gaussmarkov.net/wordpress/thoughts/wiring-up-a-1590b/

as to why most diagrams don't give full off board wiring, it's a time and space saver. the same reason every map isn't a world map.

am guessing that layout designers reason that rather than clock up all the extra time it would take them to add full offboard wiring diagrams for every build, if they oblige a newbie to put it a bit of time and effort to look up a generic offboard wiring diagram, they can then spend all that saved time on designing more layouts. and eventually the newbie will appreciate that trade-off as they will ulitmately have more layouts to chose from.

but i was frustrated by it too when i started so i can sympathise with your irritation. that 'assumed' knowledge you feel shut out of. but it's just a time and space saver that (long-term, annoying short term) builders accept the pay off for (more layouts).

good luck with it.

btw, it would be a good idea to make your post subject heading more specific (mention 3pdt and led) so that if another member new to the forum has the same problem they can find this thread easily using search. to help out those who come after you. you may still be able to edit it. edit functions available under the 'more' button menu on the top right of the frame you enter text in.

[Chris60601]

Right. The off board section is "in addition to" what you see in each Vero layout.

[Beaker]

The drawing you are working to is a fully working and complete circuit, so if you have built it as shown, and used the parts listed, it is complete, so no harm no foul, you have not wasted any parts, and no parts need changing.

It just needs to be grafted onto the offboard wiring drawing to include the stomp switch, LED, power socket and/or battery snap and jack sockets.

You can either use the offboard wiring method on the tab at the top of the page, Gaussmarkov's method that Tabbycat has just posted, and there are other methods available too.

For the record, I'm with Tabbycat - I do the Gaussmarkov wiring on all my pedals.

[Chris60601]

Exactly. Ah grasshoppa, soon you'll be looking at daughter boards for the stomp switch and other fun stuff

[rocket88]

i'm not going to come down on you for being all snarky when you've been pointed in the right direction and given help. but, what has been said before is spot on. we're all here to help, but it's like the old saying. you catch more flies with Big Muffs, then with Klons........or something like that.

just to try and clarify. the reason you don't see the offboard wiring, ie: LED and On/Off stomp switch, is because it's the same on every pedal you build, if you're using true bypass, which is 99% of the time. when you look at a vero layout, like the Mastotron you've chosen, that is the circuit itself in that if you hook up the Input wire directly to the input jack, and the output wire to the output jack you will have a working effect that is always on. the offboard wiring basically changes that so you can either have the effect engaged or not engaged so you can choose when to have it on or off. if you don't want an LED, like many effects back in the day, you'll use a slightly different switch wiring with a DPDT stomp switch.

nothing against the offboard wiring posted by tabby, it's fine and will work, but i prefer the one posted on the main site, here. by following this method you will have the jacks, board, switch, and everything grounded nicely, which helps prevent grounding issues.

i'm assuming this is your first vero build. if i were you, i would read the build guide on the main site, here. it's not a guide for the pedal you want to build, but it will give you an idea how to put everything together, and how to wire it all up. just another suggestion, take it or leave it, but i wouldn't start with an effect with that many knobs and switches. it can get a little overwhelming and just increases the risk of messing something up. i would start with something a little simpler, like a booster, Si fuzzface, one knob fuzz, etc. something that there's not a lot to go wrong, and will sound good. again, you can do what you want, but i'm just speaking from experience, as the first effect i built was way more then i should have done. i did learn a ton from it, and the mistakes i made, and debugging, but it's very discouraging and frustrating. you don't want to run before you can walk, know what i mean?

side note, if you do end up getting more invovled with building, do NOT do any Germanium builds until you've got a few other builds under your belt that are successful. Germanium transistors are finicky beasts, and Germanium builds can go bad very easily. everyone should make at least one Germanium pedal, but when they're ready. trust me, take it from the emperors mouth on that one.

[Marbles]

Welcome from a fellow noob..
I haven't been doing this for a while, and think you came to the right place to start.

What I can't help but comment on though... There are a lot of people with a lot of knowledge here. You can learn a lot from them, I know I do.
Just.. realise that they are all trying to. This site is not 'made' for us, it's all done on a 'charity-base'. They don't 'owe' us anything. They provide information and we should be glad they even take the effort to put it out there.
I know things can get frustrating (trust me), but c'mon, don't hate on a site that gives you all the info you need to know if you know where to look.
Some things, like the offboard wiring are the same every build. There is no need to point that out in every schematic, it would make things disordered. Just like the layout for potmeters, or how to use an iron.

Again, I'm not trying to be a smartass, and I may be out of line since it's not my place to say it, but the makers put these veros out there, traced these circuits for us so we can use them and don't have to do it ourselves.. So I feel it has to be said.

My advice would be to ask questions and be grateful. To say that the site is 'not properly done' and it 'doesn't make sense', well, you could be kicking a few shins with remarks like that. It sounds like you feel that they owe you, and they don't owe anyone anything.

It's probably not your intention, I just feel that I had to say how some of your remarks come across. So don't take it badly, just advice from one struggling noob to another.. Relax and appreciate the hard work that has already been done for you, you'll be fine ;)

[Muadzin]

It probably helped me that I started out building BYOC pedals, so I pretty much copied their offboard wiring from their build docs. Then I moved on to Tonepad and they also have an offboard wiring PDF detailing many ways to do the wiring. So when I finally moved to vero layouts how to do the offboard wiring was never an issue for me. Nowadays I do the wiring according to the one provided here:

http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/offboard-wiring.html

One thing I learned though, there are many ways to do true bypass wiring with a 3PDT switch. It boggles the mind really.

When ordering the parts for a new pedal one should always assume the following: Whatever you're going to order, unless the layout specifically says so always assume that in addition to that you will also always need an enclosure (125B for the win!!!), a 3PDT switch, a LED, something to hold the LED in place like a LED bezel, 1 resistor of personal choice to regulate power and brightness to the LED (2K2 if you like things bright, 4K7 or higher if you like it more dimmed), a DC connector for power and two jacks, one of them maybe stereo. For those archaic types who still use batteries don't forget a battery snap as well. I use an excel spreadsheet to plan my orders and my standard copy paste basic spreadsheet has those parts already filled in.

If you can't get a 3PDT switch (because they're sold out, it happens), you can use a DPDT footswitch with a millennium board. In which case you need an additional 1N914 diode and a BS170 or 2N7000 transistor.

http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/millennium-bypass-2.html

[Beaker]

Marbles said it far better than I did, so Knight please accept my apologies if I came on rather strong to you.

What you have to realise is that this site comes for free, and is the work of just two guys, lvlark and Mirosol, who between them have contributed probably 80- 90% of all the layouts, as well as the site design, and they also keep the place going.

Perhaps understandably we on the forum totally appreciate the gift we have been given, but sometimes might be a little overprotective on Mark and Miro's behalf.

This forum is also completely un-moderated, so totally relies on a level of mutual friendliness and respect among it's users. It is unlike just about any other music related forum I have ever visited - the sheer friendliness and generosity shown on here is exemplary, with almost none of the bragging, back-biting and flaming that goes on on other forums.

So as I said one the first line of my post, welcome, I really do mean it.