boss ce-2 ticking

[strassercaster]

hello i just finished my boss ce-2 And i have the dreaded tick. i did beef up some of the power filtering added a 220uf to the main in power supply with a 1n4001 to ground. i used the non modded layout ffrom here. i was getting ticking when on and off. i shielded the both inputs outputs that helped some. i then shielded the rate knob that helped a lot. i still have the tick though it is much less it is still noticable when engaged. it is gone when off. i tried moving several wires around didnt help. i still havent shielded the depth pot yet i ran out of shileded wire. i did up the 47uf to 100uf and tried upping the 220uf to 470uf no effect on the tick. I also replaced the two 1uf non electrolytics with the original schematics 1 uf. electrolytics. i have tried rearranging the board wires and have it fully boxed.
 
I also tried upping the 4k7 resistors to 5.6 because i am running at 5.25 volts instead of 4.5 i thought if i added some resistance the voltage would come down . i read if the voltage is over 4.5 it could cause power ticking . i also tried changing the 33r at the 9volt input to 100r 220r up to 390r to try and tame it but that had no noticiable change.

  i also tried running 100r resistors to the 9v leg on all four chips and putting a 100pf to ground on all but the jrc4558. it was getting pretty hairy so i removed all of these expiriments since they had no affect. what can i try next. i dont really know where to go from here. i read a few people went to 15 volt power supplys i guess that could over power the system so the clock chip lfo doesnt shock and starve the system on the flip flop.

Any advice would be appreciated . im not very knowledgable in these matters and I am really looking forward to some constructive suggestions. thanks in advance.


I will post voltages if that will help. its sounds fantastic other than the tic tic tic. it was ticking about 90 percent louder than it is now. I am so close to perfection but yet so far away. thanks in advance

[Travis]

Rocket said he had ticking problems with his small clone build that went away after he put a buffer in front of it. Try a buffer!

[rocket88]

Put a buffer in front of it and see if it fixes it. I had ticking with my small clone and the buffer fixed if. I just put a boss pedal in front and poof it was gone. So I'm going to put an internal buffer so I don't even have to think about if.

[strassercaster]

i just tried it with my boss tuner in front. no difference. its almost livable but its driving me nuts at the same time. i really reduced it with the shielding . i need tomshield that deoth pot. my problem is the voltage spike when the square wave hitsnthe triangle and there is the sudden voltage spike i think. i will get some shiellded wire on thursday the only thing not shielded is the rate might as well do it and see. the rate pot shielding really made a huge improvement . im hoping someone else has some good suggestions. when i had the 100pf going from power to ground i didnt have the shielding. after i shield the depth pot wires i mat try this again. i guess i could go higher on the 100pf value as well. thanks guys i do appreciate your time and wisdom.this was a mega build for me.

i spemt about six hour for the build from layout to boxed. then i spent an hour one night debugging no luck . the next night found a 10k off by a hole going to ground . yhe next night i did all the power filter beefing up and spent  a couple hours rewiring with shielded cable. all in all im 10 plus hours and i can see the finish line but iys not acceptable ha ha.thanks again.

i am waiting for a new tl022 to come in a couple of weeks i tried a tl 062 it was much louder tic be Use of the current draw i assume. im so close but so far away.
i was warned that this could happen but i plowed forward. my one buddy says its probably the layout these can be quirky . i almost bought the madbean pork barrell but he was sold out. 10 hours . i also plan on doing the stereo daughter board if and when i sort out this tic


i still havent built an audio probe. if i did how would i use it. just follow the input around till i hear the tic?

[Frank_NH]

All I could find on this topic is this:

"Check the voltage on pins 3/6 of the dual op-amp used for the LFO.  It should be 4.5v with a fresh battery.  From what I've learned, substantial deviations from the mid-point voltage can produce an audible tick."

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=15905.0

Shielding the input also seems to help, but it looks like you've done that already.

Let me know how this turns out.  I pulled the trigger on a MN3007, MN3101 set on eBay and would love to try the CE-2 circuit.  In fact, I also plan to build the Bad Stone (just got my new vero supply yesterday) and it would be awesome to have the CE-2 and Bad Stone as a combo chorus/phaser/vibe effect in a large enclosure.  

[strassercaster]

thanks frank. i saw that one as well. i have 5.25 volts where i should have 4.5 on 3 and six. anyone know how i can lower it?

[Frank_NH]

Check out the analysis of the CE-2 circuit at Electrosmash...

http://www.electrosmash.com/boss-ce-2-analysis

The TL022 is the LFO chip.  This explains why shielding the rate pot helped so much.  Shielding the depth pot should likewise help.

Now - there is a 10K trimmer in the power section, which I believe is for adjusting the Vcc/2 voltage to be exactly 4.5V.  Did you adjust the trimmer for 4.5V??  

[strassercaster]

checked again 4.5 volts on the trimmer the side with one leg.i had a friend put it on an oscilloscope today. you cansee the power bounce with the tic of the clock.

[Frank_NH]

Two things:

(1) Using the Eletrosmash schematic as a guide, there appear to be places where the unregulated +9V is used and the regulated +9v (+9Vreg) is used (particularly for the MN3101/MN3007).  This may or may not be important.

(2) Using a low current TL022 seems to be important:

"The LFO is implemented using a dual op-amp TL022 in cascade; this op-amp has a low current consumption, which is good to prevent ticking in the power supply. Some ticking can be mixed with the audio when the LFO produces the rising or falling edge of a square wave and there is a very sudden surge in the current."

It would be interesting to check the source voltages at various points in the circuit to see where the oscillation is leaking in.

[strassercaster]

thanks frank ill post voltages late tonight when i get off of work

[Frank_NH]

 One more thing to try, strassercaster.  Note that the + inputs to the 4558 dual op amps are both from the 4.5V supply, and they are directly in the audio path.  Thus if the "tick" is in the 4.5V supply, then you would hear it at the outputs of both 4558 op amps (pins 1 and 7).  perhaps you can check this with an audio probe or O-scope.

An interesting experiment would be to rig up an independent 4.5V supply on a breadboard and supply the 4558 chip with that.  That would require pulling the 4558 and placing it on the breadboard and then use wires to connect back to your vero through your IC socket (assuming you use sockets - I always do).

Good luck!

[strassercaster]

Thanks frank. Their is a tick we only had a few minutes but we saw it on the oscilloscope. To be honest I'm a noob and learning still. I am going to try and isolate the 9volt  power to tl022 first. I doubt that will help but I am also going to throw a 10uf and 560pf across legs 4 and 8 and isolate the ground. I will have power and ground coming straight from my power source. The power source has a 1n4001 and 220 across pos and net already. Man this is tricky stuff.i was going to get a pork barrel but they are out of stock so I built this. I have over 6 hours building it and probably 5 troubleshooting it. It's way better than before the shielding but not acceptable yet. I really wanted this version to work because I plan on adding the stereo mod. Anyway someone could do a layout for the voltage divider and jrc4558 daughter board?

[Frank_NH]

I was looking over the Madbean Pork Barrel schematic here:

http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/PorkBarrel/PorkBarrel_2015.pdf

Notice that the 4.5V reference voltage for the TL022 is obtained from a *separate* voltage divider using two 10K resistors.  I believe this is done to isolate the TL022' s4.5V reference voltage from the other points in the circuit requiring 4.5V (e.g. the 4558 IC).  I think if I build this, I'll mod the vero to accommodate this isolated 4.5V idea.

(edit:  I worked out a way to shoe-horn the 10k resistors for the TL022 4.5V voltage divider into the CE-2 layout.  This mod also requires an additional 47 uF cap, per the Pork barrel layout).

[strassercaster]

ya i did some looking too. i am going to do a voltage divider . iill give it a shot tomorrow night. so basically i need a small daughterboard. ill put two 10k
s in series going to ground take the juice from the intersection. now do i span the two ten k with the 47uf i assume? then just cut the stripboard atpin two on the tl022 use my seperate 4.5 and run a ground wire directly to the dc jack . do i also need to run a seperate 9v wire from the dc jack to pin 8 on the tl022? i took a couple days off on this one. i have been very frustrated by it ha ha.i have done 27 pedals since jan 26. i have the fever ha ha. i had a few week battle with my small clone build that i did win. that was. a few errors and a bad cheap chip socket that cost me three 1 hour troubleshooting sessions. so far this has been the only build i did everything right on and have an issue.mi only had two errors on this build and found one in my first session and the other in my second. then it worked with tic. i spent an hour shielding the inputs and outputs one night and an hour doing the depth and rate pit shielding. then an hour trying to run 100r resistors and 100pf across the 1-8 pins. i also tried putting all the omitted electrolytics back. i am so close and tomorrow night i will try your suggestion. it has to fix it ill let you know. thanks you guys . im a noob but i learn every build and session. you guys are all so helpful and knowledable thanks for your time and support

[Frank_NH]

The mod is pretty simple if you want to add a separate voltage divider for the TL022.

(1) Remove link as shown.
(2) Add a 47uF cap to the upper right.
(3) Add two 10K resistors at bottom (gray).

Hope this helps.

(image removed...)

[strassercaster]

well i tried it frank. i couldnt get it to chorus. the lfo wasnt working. i put it back and it worked again with ticking. it did pass signsl and added some gain but no matter where i set the trimmer i got no chorus. mad this is so frustrating ha ha. thank you for trying to help. if i try wa daughter board i guess i connect the power from the board at pin 5 on the tl022 correct?

[Frank_NH]

Hmmm.  I'm pretty sure my mod delivered the 4.5V to the LFO, but maybe I ovelooked something.  I'll delete the image for now so noone else is led astray...

Thanks for trying it out.  

[strassercaster]

hey could you repost that image i forgot to save it. i want to try it again maybe i overlooked something. i may of had a bridge when i did it or something . i have done so many things to this poor little board its getting a little beat up.ha ha. thanks.. do you think maybe i need to disconnect something else?

[Frank_NH]

OK.  Here it is again.

The explanation is as follows.  The link that is removed is the original wire supplying 4.5V to the LFO.  The two 10K resistors form a voltage divider between the +9v connection to the TL022 and ground which provides 4.5 volts to the LFO.

I would use your voltmeter to confirm that 4.5V is being seen at the junction of the 10K resistors.  If this is not right, then I can see the LFO not working at all.  Good luck!

[strassercaster]

thank you Frank you the man. i am glad i tried it again. i used the non led layout and forgot to hook up the 1meg . its no longer ticking. it does have a prominent swirl  pulse and kind of wind sound when idleing but idk if thats normal or not. The non musical tic is gone. i really appreciate everyones help especially yours Frank I wish I could buy you a beer ha ha. Now that its working I am going to add the stereo daughter board and the led . man life is short and this project was over my head. that being said i learned a lot from it. troubleshooting is an important aspect of this stuff. i did about an hour at a time . I researched before every session and had a plan. reaching out was the answer thank god you heard my call franks ha ha.thanks agian any idea why i am getting the wind sound?maybe i should make a video of the pedal so you can hear what i am talking about.